Still boat hunting

[DBA Forum (B) - Gary Wiles]

I'm still hunting for the right boat but feeling very unsure about what I may be letting myself in for! I'm very particular about getting just the right boat which in all likelyhood will not be a barge but a coastal vessel able to navigate the larger european inland waterways.
I've been considering one boat for a year or more, but am a bit nervous of it. It's a bare hull with new engine and steering gear and although capable of moving under it's own power, is not weather tight and so would have to be returned to the UK by road, initial enquiries have determined that the transport is feasible and affordable. I could maybe scrape together 70-100k for the fitout but have no idea if this would be enough for a complete fitout of a 17m boat to include fitting fuel and water tanks a hardwood wheelhouse and a repaint. I'd hope to have the insulation and internal lining out done for me leaving me to install the wiring, plumbing and cosmetic fitout. I've earned a living with spanners in the past and have done a fair bit of DIY in homes including fitting central heating sy
stems but I'm not too handy at carpentry.
Another option is a larger boat with much of the internal fitout completed to a fairly high standard but with most of the technical fitout still to do. Although it seems to be a lesser project on the face of it, I'm intimidated by the size! At 25m I wonder if I'd ever be able to afford moorings for it in the UK and worry that the maintainence costs would increase exponetially by it's size.
Can anybody calm my nerves?

[DBA Forum (B) - Andy Soper]

Hello Gary,

Buying a barge is like buying a house - you will know which one is right for you.

Your 70-100K fit out budget looks about right if you are doing as much of it as you can do yourself.

25m will cost about half as much again in mooring costs, licence fees (where applicable) has higher UK legal restrictions (crew etc).

Maintenance costs for the machinery and systems will be similar but hull and superstructure painting will be greater for 25m.

Which one do you like most and which one are you happier completing?

[DBA Forum (B) - Gary Wiles]

Thanks for the reply Andy.
I've renovated a couple of houses. One hands on and one project managing tradesmen, but houses seem somehow less daunting,
perhaps because it's so much easier to obtain estimates and predict the value of the finished project. Fixing estimates for a boat fitout is increadably difficult principally because it's near impossible for a yard to quote on a job unseen, despite me having drawings. Also few boat yards will take an enquiry seriously for a boat that is not yet owned, which I guess is reasonable enough.
The smaller of the two boats (A customs cutter) is probably the one I prefer and certainly much more practical in terms of ongoing costs once fitted out, although the larger one ( A large twin screw motor yacht) is stunningly beautiful both inside and out.
I've based my own estimates of fitout costs partly by studying build blogs of a couple of barges and partly by comparing the difference in costs of a new build sailaway and finished barge from the same manufacturer. I dont really have much confidence in either method though especially when the usual advice is that it will cost twice as much and take twice as long as you think.

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Gary,

When you say you have been looking at a single boat for a year or more, suggests to me a third alternative, as time does not seem a critical concern. Why not go to a good naval architect, like Wolstenholme, who would listen to your dream list a design a vessel for you which could be built by one of many UK builders. The saving of the suggested transport costs, would most likely go some way to paying the design fees.

In terms of the fitting out cost and your comparing sail-away to full fit out, is a interesting thought, but it would includes labour costs in the latter, I have heard say, that Labour costs equates to approx 60% of a fit out, so in theory if you do it yourself, then there would be a 60% saving ie if the difference between a sail away and full outfit of 200K, it would cost you 80K + any individual labour needed. ?

I am in a similar position of trying to formulate budget for a DIY fit out, by making and excel sheet of costs of materials and equipment needed with a QS type approach, I have also heard that the fit out is approx twice the basic hull cost but does this include labour or not.

I thing both Gary and I would benefit for some words of wisdom about the (excluding labour) cost of fitting out a 17-18M DB coastal to a normal spec excluding Engine & steering + items like a Genny , solar etc which can be easily quantified and added on.

[DBA Forum (B) - Andy Soper]

See - http://www.barging.co.uk/diyfitoutcost.htm

10 years old now but the most detailed list to hand.

[DBA Forum (B) - Andy Soper]

And here- http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/costs.htm

Both of these web-sites can be found via the DBA web-site - Members PagesC!

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

like Wolstenholme, who would listen to your dream....

We went to him and very accommodating. His design fee was/is 10% of a final boat yard price - and he was thinking of a £0.4m vessel (20m ish) so £40k!

We went elsewhere!

I reckon fitout cost ratio is more like 20/80 to 10/90. Labour to install material and kit is 4+ times the item cost.

When I started this venture I created a massive spreadsheet and costed everything I could think of - wood, screws, paint, equipment marine and domestic etc etc etc. I recall gave me a figure of £120k (2001) plus coat of a hull and then add labour on top.

When I did it, I hit boat jumbles big time and achieved excellent savings across the board.

Colin Stone
KEI
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk

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[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Andy,

Thanks , I have studied both the excellent sites you have suggested previously , which had no small part in my deciding to build a DB , together with Alan Arnold's ( http://www.jenal.co.uk ). However what I was after was how valid the 40/60% material/labour split is and also the general rule of hull cost x 2 for fit out cost if this is with or without labour.

This would I believe be a very useful guide to a would be DIY'er and avoid the possibility of the dream being bigger than the pocket, as a QS style costing of Materials can be easily made, but this must be combined with confidence that one of the above basic formula's hold good ( with of course a contingency included ).

The reason I have suggested Wolstenholme in my post, was that last month I had the pleasure to board a DBA members DB "Ida" and he highly recommended him as a designer, who could convert a dream list into a practical CAD design to be built anywhere and having seen the DB in question, I can agree the designer has done a great job.

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Colin,

With reference to you 20/80 split , I am a little confused, is your 80 including labour or not , if it is what would you suggest would be a reasonable split for a fit out excluding labour?

The problem with using this type of split is of course what is included in the base 20% so we should make the assumption of Hull , Engine, steering , internal Tanks, Ballast , Wheelhouse and windows/portholes, and external painting + internal priming. ie able to be sailed away and secure and not requiring to be taken out of the water to complete, so if spud legs and thrusters are included then fitted but item costs not included in the 20%

What is concerning me is that that my own calculations don't match these splits for a 18M

a. Hull cost to above sail-away
Excluding Engine 85K ( 1K per ft for basic hull and Tanks to shot-blasted ) from quote received
b. Engine & Hydraulics + Genny 28K Including Spud-legs Bow & Stern Thrusters from quote received
c. Fit-out Material Cost 45K

The 45 K is well within the Laundry list from Andy's www.barging.co.uk/diyfitoutcost.htm as suggested above, so am I wildly wrong
with my estimated Fit out and what of the above would equate to the 20 in the 20/80 split

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Cost of item £20, cost of labour to fit 4x cost of item at £80.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
Fit-out Material Cost 45K

Take that to be kit and materials. So x4 = £180k

£85k today seems to be pretty good for a 18m sailaway - anchor winch(s), chain and anchors? Although prices increase a lot in line with volume.

My basic 22m x 4.85m hull all steel work completed was £65k and approx 1600 manhours - 2.5 men for 4 months - in 2004.

Colin Stone
KEI


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[DBA Forum (B) - Sharon Hammond]

Gary,

Stan and I have been renovating houses in the USA in Oakland and Berkeley CA , across the Bay from San Francisco, for many many years and we have a lot of empathy for your comments about the differences between quotes and performance for renovations of houses and for renovations of boats. We have struggled a bit this year with 1) the costs of having local “marine” folks do work and 2) the difficulties of doing work ourselves when pretty much all the systems, measurements, tools, parts and pieces, etc are more or less foreign to an American.
All we can say is 1) we empathize and 2) - persevere - if you work on to it, in our experience, the French worker folks would really like to make it work, so keep on trucking, don’t expect miracles but be open to good stuff!

stan dnsharon hammoond
Encore

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Gary Wiles
Thanks for the reply Andy.
I've renovated a couple of houses. One hands on and one project managing tradesmen, but houses seem somehow less daunting,
perhaps because it's so much easier to obtain estimates and predict the value of the finished project. Fixing estimates for a boat fitout is increadably difficult principally because it's near impossible for a yard to quote on a job unseen, despite me having drawings. Also few boat yards will take an enquiry seriously for a boat that is not yet owned, which I guess is reasonable enough.
The smaller of the two boats (A customs cutter) is probably the one I prefer and certainly much more practical in terms of ongoing costs once fitted out, although the larger one ( A large twin screw motor yacht) is stunningly beautiful both inside and out.
I've based my own estimates of fitout costs partly by studying build blogs of a couple of barges and partly by comparing the difference in costs of a new build sailaway and finished barge from the same manufacturer. I dont really have much confidence in either method though especially when the usual advice is that it will cost twice as much and take twice as long as you think.

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

Gary - What's the beam, draft and air draft of your 25m motor cruiser? If the beam is more than 5.0m(I'm not want more than 4.7m) you will have very restricted inland cruising available. If its air draft is more than about 3.3m you'll be disappointed with your potential cruising in France. If its draft is more than about 1.3m you'll find certain waterways chellenging, although draft is probably the least critical of these main dimnsions. A cruiser of this length is likely to exceed the beam and air draft that are ideal for EU canals.

Peter

[DBA Forum (B) - James Smith]

Andy, hi,

a useful checklist, thank you.

Kind regards,

james

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Andy Soper [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 02 October 2014 14:51
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See - http://www.barging.co.uk/diyfitoutcost.htm

10 years old now but the most detailed list to hand.