Discussion:
Wet Exhaust?
DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-10-03 20:01:06 UTC
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I'm considering converting my DAF 575 dry exhaust to a wet exhaust, using the raw cooling water outflow. I've been told that this should make a significant difference to the engine noise.

Has anyone done this or have any thoughts on whether it is worth doing?

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden
2014-10-03 22:36:19 UTC
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Pete,

I did things rather the other way round. "Actief" entered our life with a dry exhaust and a keel cooled Daf. The engine room temperatures were excessively excessive, and of course permeated up to the wheelhouse, so we installed a raw water pump and a wet exhaust. Later, for various technical reasons, we changed the engine to raw water / heat exchanger cooling as well.

The problem with a wet exhaust is that Dafs are not just smoky, they are also prone to bore glazing. Yours probably is glazed, but you won't know it with a dry exhaust unless it is really badly glazed. With a wet exhaust the miniscule amount of oil blowing past the rings and not burning up in the combustion process goes into the exhaust, emulsifies in the water and you end up with an oil slick around your exhaust outlet, which can be a bit noticeable in locks. (Perhaps that is why I use two ropes and stop the engine when I can?)

I tried everything, glaze busting the bores, special additives, and even built a "water / oil separator" in the exhaust line, which didn't make one iota of difference, so we live with it, but I do get tempted to revert to a Blokland box cooler and dry exhaust.

There is a way round the oil problem, which I might just install when we are next on dock, but I'm not putting it in print.

If it is noise rather than heat that bothers you then there are various "hospital" silencers around which are very effective silencers, albeit bulky. Their extra size and packing also reduces the heat output a bit, but not enough for somebody like me who hates heat, and they will not reduce the noise as much as a well designed wet system.

Balliol..
DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-10-04 06:07:32 UTC
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Morning you two,

I don´t know how much you want to spend converting the system, But if you start spending money anyhow, why not at least thinking about a more radical solution like junking the DAF.

Replacement engines from MAN, Mercedes or Scania can be picked up for smallish money (say from €5000 for a recon), and you will be mighty surprised with the result. They all develop huge torque at very low revs. and the dimensions are small. You are probably looking at the 200 to 300 HP power range. AND THEY ARE SUPER CLEAN.

There is a drawback, if they are sick, you need a man in a white coat with a computer...

Frank
DBA Forum (B) - Jeremy May
2014-10-04 06:11:51 UTC
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The problem with a wet exhaust is that Dafs are not just smoky, they are also prone to bore glazing. Yours probably is glazed, but you won't know it with a dry exhaust unless it is really badly glazed. With a wet exhaust the miniscule amount of oil blowing past the rings and not burning up in the combustion process goes into the exhaust, emulsifies in the water and you end up with an oil slick around your exhaust outlet, which can be a bit noticeable in locks. (Perhaps that is why I use two ropes and stop the engine when I can?)


Interesting. We have a little slick when idling in locks (and on start-up) and a little more smoke than when cruising at 1200 or so revs. In other words I think it's pretty much ok when up to temperature. Have been wondering about a refurb but (touch wood) our 40-year-old Ford has not missed a beat in 7 years and I'm loathed to muck about with it.
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-04 06:18:02 UTC
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Pete,

Wet exhausts tend to be quieter as the water absorbs the energy.

I have a dry exhaust and the exhaust manifold is water jacketed, which removes a significant heating and noise source. DAFs I have seen have just had plain lorry type exhaust manifold with a little bandage lagging.
I also have a Cowl TS40TR silencer which is pretty small and does a remarkable job. Acknowledged to be the best marine silencer available.

www.favoritevendor.com/page25.html

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image140.html

This is the standard Residential grade one and does the same job as a 6ft x 2ft "hospital" silencer.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/documents/cowl%20silencer.pdf

This is the generator one and Critical grade for extra attenuation. It is the size of a biscuit tin. Dry exhaust is barely audible when stood on bank next to outlet - a whisper of moving air.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image180.html

Colin Stone
KEI

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DBA Forum (B) - Charles Fitzhardinge
2014-10-04 08:17:33 UTC
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As Colin impliies, generator noise is often much more critical than main engine, as generators are often run when stationary.

There is little doubt that wet exhaust is quietest - our Fisher panda came with wet exhaust and was almost imperceptible when running.
However, unlike our trouble-free keel cooled DAF615 the system was regularly shut down by FP's (perhaps hypersensitive) controls when its raw water system ingested weed in the often less than pristine waterways we travel. Problem was, this, as intended, prevented damage to the plastic parts usually included in wet exhausts downstream of the water injection point.

Ùnfortunately, keel cooling is normally considered incompatible with wet exhaust.so last year whilst out of the water at SFR we had the FP converted to keel cooling (Blokland box) and dry exhaust.

The dry exhaust has been a problem since. The muffler selected by the shipyard is only just adequate on board, where sound is noticeable but bearable. SFR retained the original exhaust outlet, discharging horizontally about 5ocm above water on the curve at the front of our tjalk.

When moored against a hard surface unacceptable noise is reflected back, and the sound discharged forward and to port is unacceptable, the exhaust acting like a megaphone and broadcasting across the water sufficiently to cause passers by to wince, and if we are moored, neighbours to complain (especially in Holland where "quiet enjoyment is treasured and the period between offence and direct action complaint measurable only in nanoseconds).

I will try Colin's muffler this winter, probably with a vertical exhaust outlet.

If this does not do the trick I think my only solution is to revert to wet exhaust, but using a dedicated pump and generous filter(s) for the water source (I want to retain the keel cooling).

Charles Fitzhardinge
De Vrouwe Anna Maria
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-04 08:31:01 UTC
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Charles,

I'll record the generator outlet when next running and email. And engine outlet.

Colin Stone
KEI


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DBA Forum (B) - Graham Johnston
2014-10-04 10:07:11 UTC
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I have a smokey old DAF 825 with keel cooling and raw water intake for the oil cooler and wet exhaust, which comes out through the transom just above water line. The engine runs very quietly and the engine room is not excessively warm. This year on the Bourgogne I needed to clear the filter twice a day but still had real problems with blockages in the raw water inlet (once from mud & grasses after being forced aground by a bigger barge, and later from having an expanded polystyrene mug sucked into the intake. Interestingly, running with a 'dry' wet exhaust made no discernible difference to the noise of the exhaust - if anything,MIT was smoother and sounded like a coach idling waiting for passengers!
I cannot see any benefit in changing to a dry (and still smokey) exhaust.

I would be very interested to hear Andy's fix for the DAF's 'oil slick'.

Graham
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Fitzhardinge
2014-10-04 11:38:14 UTC
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Thanks Colin
FYI I attach a record of sound measurements I have made for Anna Maria (DAF615 main engine, Kubota 5kW single cylinder generator diesel).

I suspect under certain conditions the sound is carried forward with the water and a hard edge (eg concrete or sheet piling) acting as a sort of partial wave guide, thus greatly reducing the usual sound attenuation.
Charles Fitzhardinge
De Vrouwe Anna Maria
[attachment=228]AMEngineNoiseLevels.pdf[/attachment]
DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-10-04 17:17:00 UTC
Permalink
[quote="Charles Fitzhardinge" post=58280]
As Colin impliies, generator noise is often much more critical than main engine, as generators are often run when stationary.
[/quote]
...Which is why a wet-exhaust generator is good to have! My Northern Lights is barely audible; we've been known to forget it's on and leave it running too long and I can happily make a phone call while sitting on it. It's interesting that Colin's NL with the Cowl silencer is just as good - and would perhaps be true for the engine, too.

I hadn't thought of oil in the water from a smoky DAF exhaust. It wouldn't look good, especially in Holland. With that & Graham's comment, the wet exhaust may drop off my list. Changing the silencer seems like a simpler alternative, for a similar effect. As for changing the engine, I'd have to cut off most of half the wheelhouse for that, so thanks Frank, but no!

Thanks all.

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-10-04 18:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Pete,
my motor rebuilding company take my main engine out of the engine room through a 60 x 100 cm door (in pieces naturally). 2 days later they come back, carry the refurbished and new pieces back through that same door and rebuilt the OM 404 12 cylinder 550 HP engine within 1 and a half days. This is routine procedure and happens about every 10 years...
They don´t even scratch the paint. They are called Sommerkamp and are bloody good at their job
Frank
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 19:17:00 +0200
Exhaust?
[quote="Charles Fitzhardinge" post=58280]
As Colin impliies, generator noise is often much more critical than main engine, as generators are often run when stationary.
[/quote]
...Which is why a wet-exhaust generator is good to have! My Northern Lights is barely audible; we've been known to forget it's on and leave it running too long and I can happily make a phone call while sitting on it. It's interesting that Colin's NL with the Cowl silencer is just as good - and would perhaps be true for the engine, too.
I hadn't thought of oil in the water from a smoky DAF exhaust. It wouldn't look good, especially in Holland. With that & Graham's comment, the wet exhaust may drop off my list. Changing the silencer seems like a simpler alternative, for a similar effect. As for changing the engine, I'd have to cut off most of half the wheelhouse for that, so thanks Frank, but no!
Thanks all.
Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden
2014-10-04 19:05:59 UTC
Permalink
[quote="Pete. Milne" post=58304][quote="Charles Fitzhardinge" post=58280]
As Colin impliies, generator noise is often much more critical than main engine, as generators are often run when stationary.
[/quote]
...Which is why a wet-exhaust generator is good to have! My Northern Lights is barely audible; we've been known to forget it's on and leave it running too long and I can happily make a phone call while sitting on it. It's interesting that Colin's NL with the Cowl silencer is just as good - and would perhaps be true for the engine, too.

I hadn't thought of oil in the water from a smoky DAF exhaust. It wouldn't look good, especially in Holland. With that & Graham's comment, the wet exhaust may drop off my list. Changing the silencer seems like a simpler alternative, for a similar effect. As for changing the engine, I'd have to cut off most of half the wheelhouse for that, so thanks Frank, but no!

Thanks all.

Pete[/quote]

I am presuming from Graham's comment that he has a wet exhaust system that can run dry. If the pump can run dry, and all the pipework etc. is in stainless steel then this could be done, but many wet exhausts use Jabsco impellers, plastic components and rubber hoses, all of which fail if run dry anything more than momentarily. As I said I am tempted to switch back to a dry exhaust but my limited experience is that silencers such as those suggested by Colin do still let quite a lot of heat out, which would set me back to square one! OK if you can stand the heat!

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-04 21:21:02 UTC
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Balliol,

My exhaust system lagging is no hotter than the actual external engine temp of around 85 - 90C.
In fact the lagging is cooler to touch than the engine - but it is proper marine thick quilted lagging and not just a bandage.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image85.html

So I don't think my dry exhaust contributes to engine room heat any more than the large lump of engine does.

I don't spend much time in the engine room after the engine has been running a few hours unless I'm finishing off some manifold cooking!

Can't say that the heat gets anywhere else.

Colin Stone
KEI
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DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
2014-10-04 23:44:08 UTC
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My dry exhaust on Anelja caused no heat problems in the engine room, but there were big disadvantages when it came to space requirements. The silencers for the main and generator engines were huge (and effective) but the lagging was much more of a problem as the 6 1/4" internal exhaust pipe was surrounded by several inches of lagging, all led to the transon under the decks - main one side, generator and Kabola the other side. This meant that the rear cabins, aft heads, galley and dinette (all astern of the central engine room) were all at least a foot narrower than they could have been if an unlagged wet exhaust had been used - perhaps even installed under the floor.

[attachment=232]Silencer.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=233]Silencer2.jpg[/attachment]

Peter
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-05 05:49:02 UTC
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Peter,
The silencers for the main and generator engines were huge....
Not enough marine architects and boat builders etc etc know about Cowl silencers!

Wasting space both sides for exhausts is pretty poor as well.
I guess I loose a little room under the port side deck aft in the aft cabin. Not warming in there by exhausts either.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image88.html

Colin Stone
KEI
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DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-10-05 07:54:08 UTC
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[quote="Frank Kordbarlag" post=58307]
my motor rebuilding company take my main engine out of the engine room through a 60 x 100 cm door (in pieces naturally). 2 days later they come back, carry the refurbished and new pieces back through that same door and rebuilt the OM 404 12 cylinder 550 HP engine within 1 and a half days. This is routine procedure and happens about every 10 years...
They don´t even scratch the paint. They are called Sommerkamp and are bloody good at their job
[/quote]
Wow! That's impressive. Where are they?

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-05 08:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Frank,
Post by DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
This is routine procedure and happens about every 10 years...
And how many engine hours is that?

Colin Stone
KEI

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DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-10-05 09:28:02 UTC
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The are in Hörstel, where the western end of the Mittellandkanal meets the Dortmund Ems Kanal.

4 Guys. Grandpa Sommerkamp, Ralf Sommerkamp (gets any impossible part), Martin (also known as Spanner-God) and Michel (the Kid).
Tel. +49 172 5320081 I think they speak some English. If needed, they come to the ship.

I do not let anybody except Martin near my engine.

Frank
DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-10-05 09:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Colin,
about 30,000 Hours I guess.
Frank
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 03:56:02 -0500
Exhaust?
Frank,
Post by DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
This is routine procedure and happens about every 10 years...
And how many engine hours is that?
Colin Stone
KEI
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DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-10-05 20:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Colin,

Where do you buy a Cowl silencer in the UK?

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-05 20:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Pete,

I think I bought mine from http://www.ipu.co.uk/. Otherwise http://www.wsysales.co.uk/ seem to have them.

Colin Stone
KEI
DBA Forum (B) - David Beaumont
2014-10-06 13:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Our DAF 475 has a dry exhaust. It is fairly quiet. Admittedly it is quite long and has one tiny silencer. Before I sound proofed the engine room it was unnoticeable at the exhaust end compared to the engine. After that though I did take steps to quieten it - I fitted a steel collar extending slightly beyond the exhaust rim and filled the 20mm odd gap with high temperature silicone. This stopped the noise coming out perpendicular to the exhaust and bouncing off the hull and rudder assembly. Now the exhaust is still loud if you stand (float) behind it but on deck it is fine. You just need to direct the sound onto following boats;)

David
DBA Forum (B) - David Beaumont
2014-10-06 13:10:01 UTC
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[quote="Peter Cawson" post=58312]
[attachment=233]Silencer2.jpg[/attachment]
[/quote]
Peter, Colin where do you get that luxury quilted lagging from? Does it sound proof as well (i.e is there a weighted layer in it)? Looks a lot better than my oldschool glass fibre wrap.

David
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-10-06 13:54:04 UTC
Permalink
David,
Mine was made in NL. No weighted layer, just thick wadding.

A google for marine exhaust lagging should find something.

You can also buy the materials from insulation merchants - got some from their branch near Heathrow, but can't recall name.

Colin Stone
KEI
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DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
2014-10-06 13:56:43 UTC
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David - Sorry I can't tell you where this came from - it was already on the boat but the boat was built by Tinnemans of Maasbracht. I'm sure Jan Tinnemans would be able to help. All I can say about it is that is is pretty dense, felt cool on the outside and was very effective in keeping both heat and noise under control in the engine room.

The engine was a 7.1 l Volvo Penta D7A - 230 HP - very quiet and a very nice engine able to run powerful hydraulic bow thruster even when at trolling speed of about 600 rpm

Peter

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