Winterising & 230v Hookup

[DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade]

We are now on our winter mooring. They have decided to leave the power on over winter. In the UK I moored for 2 years without shore power, only plugging in on odd occasions.

I have 500w of solar panels to keep the batteries in a good state of charge.

So the question is should I leave the shore power on and of course the inverter, or should I just let the solar do its thing as before? and plug in when I come to the boat?

What do you think?

Kevin

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Mclaren]

Do you have an isolation transformer?. If you don't I wouldn't plug-in. If you do a frost stat connected to a greenhouse heater is not a bad idea if it gets very cold. Charlie

Charlie McLaren...Sent from my iPhone

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade
We are now on our winter mooring. They have decided to leave the power on over winter. In the UK I moored for 2 years without shore power, only plugging in on odd occasions.
I have 500w of solar panels to keep the batteries in a good state of charge.
So the question is should I leave the shore power on and of course the inverter, or should I just let the solar do its thing as before? and plug in when I come to the boat?
What do you think?
Kevin

[DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade]

I don't have an isolation transformer, but I do have a galvanic isolator.

The CH system has a frost mode set to 11c and runs from 12v and I can run it remotely as well. Just need to watch the mooring site temperature.

Kevin

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Kevin,
I stay on solar PV, shore power off, not heating and everything switched off etc etc.

I drain down FW system in Dec, CH, engine and generator are well protected by 50% antifreeze. Coldest inside of vessel has got to is -9C, outside -20C. 5l water bottles still liquid but froze immediately moved!

I make sure that all ceramic valves are fully open to drain down residual moisture.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS

[DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade]

The FW system is completely drained and blown out with compressed air and all left open as well.

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Mclaren]

I am told, though I do not understand it, that a galvanic isolator does not work if you have sophisticated electronics on the boat. The man who knows says that they are virtually useless nowadays. Please don't shoot the messenger!! C

Charlie McLaren...Sent from my iPhone

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade
I don't have an isolation transformer, but I do have a galvanic isolator.
The CH system has a frost mode set to 11c and runs from 12v and I can run it remotely as well. Just need to watch the mooring site temperature.
Kevin

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

There is an intermediate step of sorts between plugged and unplugged. Some inverter/chargers have winter modes where AC inside the boat is only provided when the shore circuit is active. If shore power is tripped off, the inverter is turned off and the batteries are “protected” against being drained down. This mode is useful perhaps if you’d like to keep the central heat in frost mode as a back up to your winterization.

The supplier of our batteries suggested that the best approach is to disconnect the batteries for the winter. Our gel-type batteries will hold sufficient charge for months if disconnected. This would of course disable the bilge pump so it would seem to be ill advised unless you’ll be on the hard for the winter.

Curious about Charlie’s comment about galvanic isolators not working with sophisticated electronics on board. I’d like to hear more discussion on this. Does "useless" mean unnecessary?

Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

The supplier of our batteries suggested that the best approach is to disconnect the batteries for the winter. Our gel-type batteries will hold sufficient charge for months if disconnected. This would of course disable the bilge pump so it would seem to be ill advised unless you’ll be on the hard for the winter.

There is most likely an isolation switch (often a significant red lever) between the battery bank and any loads, shunt or anything else that could discharge your batteries. Rather than disconnect the leads from the battery, you could just switch off.

Provided keeping your bilge pumps on standby doesn't mean you need loads of meters, controllers and battery monitors on as well, a small solar panel could keep your batteries topped up even with bilge pumps switched on.

Now I've fitted solar panels, I won't have a shore supply, either over winter or when the boat is left between trips. The solar controller is connected directly to the batteries, so I can still turn off the isolation switch. This is a great load off my minds as the shore supply is quite likely to trip out or some friendly neighbour pulls out your plug over a 6 months period of absence.

Solar is surely the answer for winter top-up as well as its summer benefits. As you rightly say, batteries can be left without significant discharge for 6 months, provided there is no load whatsoever and they are well charged at the start of the winter.

Peter

[DBA Forum (B) - Kevin Wade]

I will go with my original arrangements then and stick with solar.

Cheers for the discussion.

Kevin

[DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - David Oare
Curious about Charlie’s comment about galvanic isolators not working with
sophisticated electronics on board. I’d like to hear more discussion on
this. Does "useless" mean unnecessary?

The whole subject of galvanic isolators and isolation transformers is
so beset with misinformation and old wives' tales that I treat the
whole subject with a huge pinch of salt.

Until I see a proper (preferably 'blind') test done of two identical
boats, one with some sort of isolation and one without, that shows
significant differences in the amount of corrosion I continue to treat
it all with much scepticism. :-)

[DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
Now I've fitted solar panels, I won't have a shore supply, either over
winter or when the boat is left between trips. The solar controller is
connected directly to the batteries, so I can still turn off the isolation
switch.

And when there's a fault in the wiring to the solar panels that
threatens to start a fire what do you (or more importantly, someone
else who doesn't know the boat) do?

The isolation switch is an emergency switch that should be clearly
labelled and easy for *anyone* to find to switch off in an emergency.
The isolation switch should disconnect *everything*.

If you want a switch to turn everything off but leave the panels
connected then it should be added as a separate facility.

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green
And when there's a fault in the wiring to the solar panels that

threatens to start a fire what do you (or more importantly, someone
else who doesn't know the boat) do?

Why, surely the same as if the boat was on shore supply to keep batteries charged.

Seriously, why should solar panels fail and cause a fire any more than a built-in mains-powered charger? There is MUCH less to go wrong with the former and it will not be adversely affected by accidental or deliberate tampering with a shore supply cable.

I'm suggesting this as a safety measure - not as you're suggesting a safety-sabotaging one. With nothing connected to the battery apart from a simple solar regulator, surely this is safer than having a diredt connection maintained to the main switch panel, meters, etc etc during a prolonged absence?

Peter

[DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green
And when there's a fault in the wiring to the solar panels that

threatens to start a fire what do you (or more importantly, someone
else who doesn't know the boat) do?
Why, surely the same as if the boat was on shore supply to keep batteries charged.
Seriously, why should solar panels fail and cause a fire any more than
a built-in mains-powered charger? There is MUCH less to go wrong with the
former and it will not be adversely affected by accidental or deliberate
tampering with a shore supply cable.

That wasn't really my point. *Any* part of the wiring can develop a
fault for example a wire rubbing through its insulation where it goes
through a bulkhead. The isolation switch is an emergency switch that
is guaranteed to disconnect *everything* so that if you smell burning
wire you can quickly do something that will stop it.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green
I'm suggesting this as a safety measure - not as you're suggesting a safety-sabotaging
one. With nothing connected to the battery apart from a simple solar regulator,
surely this is safer than having a diredt connection maintained to the
main switch panel, meters, etc etc during a prolonged absence?

Why is it safer? :-)

It's perfectly reasonable to have the solar panels connected in such a
way that when you turn off at the main panel (*not* the emergency
isolation switch) the panels remain connected.

My system is as follows:-
Leisure battery with 320 amp (if I remember) megafuse immediately adjacent to battery.
Next after the megafuse is the emergency switch.
Then there is a cable to the big inverter that I don't have yet.
Then there is a 60 amp fuse
Then there is the main switchboard with a master switch that turns 'everything' off and separate circuit breakers for the various circuits. There is in addition one circuit breaker that bypasses the master switch for 'always on' circuits such as my remote monitoring system, bilge pump, etc.


It might seem like overkill but it does mean that just about all my
wiring is protected by appropriate fuses or circuit breakers and it
means that my emergency switch really does turn everything off.

You can debate whether the emergency switch and megafuse need to be
the other way round but they're so close together it doesn't really
matter too much.

The solar panels are connected 'after' the 60 amp fuse, so their
wiring is protected by that fuse. The 60 amp fuse might seem
unnecessary but it allows thinner wire to be safe for such as the
solar panels.

(The whole lot is repeated for the starter battery)

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

I describe my main battery switch as an "isolator switch", not as an emergency switch. I choose toi switch it off when I leave the boat for prolonged periods to ensure that nothing can be draining the battery in my absence, but the solar panels can keep them fully charged,

[DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
I describe my main battery switch as an "isolator switch", not as an emergency
switch. I choose toi switch it off when I leave the boat for prolonged
periods to ensure that nothing can be draining the battery in my absence,
but the solar panels can keep them fully charged,

I'm not sure that provides what the BSS requires then.

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

All my other isolator switches (batteries for main engine, generator, bow and stern thruster) are buried so deep into the ship (in engine room or in cabins) that they would be of little use in an emergency such as a fire. I'm sure he boat complies with RCD regulations and I've seen nothing that states that batteries should be fitted with "emergency switches" that are placed in such as position as to be of use in such an emergency. I'm confident that my isolator switches do what they are designed to do - isolate the batteries from all loads - surely these are the things most likely to cause an electrical emergency?

I'm not saying my system is better than yours, but that it is probably just as safe and certainly more foolproof - I just flick the 5 isolator switches as I leave the boat.

Peter

[DBA Forum (B) - Chris Green]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
All my other isolator switches (batteries for main engine, generator, bow
and stern thruster) are buried so deep into the ship (in engine room or
in cabins) that they would be of little use in an emergency such as a fire.

Mine are by the exit and clearly labelled as emergency isolator
switches.

I have, similar to yours, "turn off when you leave the boat" switches
as well.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson
I'm sure he boat complies with RCD regulations and I've seen nothing that
states that batteries should be fitted with "emergency switches" that are
placed in such as position as to be of use in such an emergency. I'm confident
that my isolator switches do what they are designed to do - isolate the
batteries from all loads - surely these are the things most likely to cause
an electrical emergency?

The BSS scheme says:-
A battery master switch or switches, capable of disconnecting the system - including the starter circuits - must be fitted in a readily accessible position, as close to ...

For full details see:- http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-3-electrical-installations/battery-master-switch/

It does allow for 'always on' stuff such as the bilge pump to have a
feed which bypasses the master switch but "... as long as they're
protected separately by fuses or circuit breakers.". So your wires
to solar panels should be fused (or MCB'ed) appropriately to conform
to the BSS requirements.

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

Chris - I don't think this discussion is getting us anywhere. My boat is built to RCD specification, the regulatory authority that covers all aspects of newly-built craft within its jurisdiction. As far as I know BSS is an advisory organisation that offers advice on matters of concern to UK inland waterways vessels and has no authority other than advice, although I respect this advice.

I'm happy that my veesel's electrics are as safe as they reasonably can be, despite the location of isolation switches and the fact that I turn mine off when I leave the boat for long periods of time. I'm also happy with my solar installation and the fact that it directly charges the domestic battery bank (via the recommended fuse), even when the isolator switch is off.

Let's leave it at that.

Thanks

Peter