Discussion:
Ballast tanks
DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-09-15 07:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Water ballast helps a lot in windy conditions, and off course under bridges. It also makes for a quieter ride. Mine is very small with just 20 tons, but it helps a lot on long journeys with an empty ship.

I use 2 submersible pumps to fill and empty them, takes about 30 min.

Frank
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-15 11:32:47 UTC
Permalink
I had the same idea of making several tanks, that could be duel purpose as additional / reserve Grey water/ water tanks, but also ballast options given the right checks and balances. This was for a new build I am planing, however my potential boat builder tried to steer me away from the Idea - suggesting it would be expensive to install, even on a new build. I have taken this with a pinch of salt and have not removed it from my options. I would suspect it would depend on the hull shape - available space / against storage.

I would be interested in peoples ideas or experience on this issue, including the economics of installing them in terms of both cost and size & usefulness verses loss of storage and also hull suitability. I would expect unless it was quite large, it would not replace the other forms of ballast, but would be combined with a reduced amount / or act as a balancing facility, when the Barge is less loaded with other weighty items ( fuel - heating oil - all types of Water Black/Grey/Fresh- solid fuel - guests) ,also to allow adjustments for additional additions of equipment in the future.
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-15 16:18:02 UTC
Permalink
The ESS design by default includes 2 x approx 3k litre integral wing tanks under the main accom floor - in a 22m.

Inside a painted wing tank:

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image6.html

Some use for fuel, I use for grey and black water and can also be used as ballast. I have a 240v 1.5kw 1.5 inch pump which I use to rinse or fill. A further same size trash pump empties tanks to hull discharge or the std black water pump out deck fitting.

My 3 fuel tanks are in the engine room, total just under 5k litres.

Can't say I noticed any change in price specifying tanks and all the hole cutting and welding threaded fittings to tanks.

6k ltr fresh water tanks sit between wing tanks. No loss of bilge storage space - I have masses.

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-15 18:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Frank, hi,

good to hear from you.

How large is your boat and how much lower in the water is she with 20tons
additional water ballast?

I don't like the idea of permanent water ballast, though. The tanks would be
pretty inaccessible once the boat is fitted out and the possibility of
corrosion means (I guess) that they would need to be painted inside as well
as out and inspected regularly?

I will likely have two massive fuel tanks fitted with a capacity of around
10,000 litres. These will only be filled with diesel once every few years
for those long voyages, at other times they could be used as ballast tanks.
Two smaller tanks fore and aft might bring the total up to around 20,000
litres, same as you.

Kind regards,

James


-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 08:29
subscribers
tanks


Water ballast helps a lot in windy conditions, and off course under bridges.
It also makes for a quieter ride. Mine is very small with just 20 tons, but
it helps a lot on long journeys with an empty ship.

I use 2 submersible pumps to fill and empty them, takes about 30 min.

Frank
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-15 18:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Charles, hi,

I think you and I are pretty much on the same wavelength on this one. I'll
keep posting on the forum.

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 12:33
subscribers
tanks


I had the same idea of making several tanks, that could be duel purpose as
additional / reserve Grey water/ water tanks, but also ballast options given
the right checks and balances. This was for a new build I am planing,
however my potential boat builder tried to steer me away from the Idea -
suggesting it would be expensive to install, even on a new build. I have
taken this with a pinch of salt and have not removed it from my options. I
would suspect it would depend on the hull shape - available space / against
storage.

I would be interested in peoples ideas or experience on this issue,
including the economics of installing them in terms of both cost and size &
usefulness verses loss of storage and also hull suitability. I would
expect unless it was quite large, it would not replace the other forms of
ballast, but would be combined with a reduced amount / or act as a balancing
facility, when the Barge is less loaded with other weighty items ( fuel -
heating oil - all types of Water Black/Grey/Fresh- solid fuel - guests)
,also to allow adjustments for additional additions of equipment in the
future.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-15 18:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,

right, yes. I was thinking of "integral" tanks, that is, part of the hull
design, rather than separate tanks. I suppose inspection would be that bad
with a large in the top and a mirror on a stick...

I take it that your hull is effectively double skinned where the tanks are?
Or is the tank wall here actually also the side of the hull?

Finally, if you don't mind me asking yet another question, what about
corrosion?

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 17:18
subscribers
tanks


The ESS design by default includes 2 x approx 3k litre integral wing tanks
under the main accom floor - in a 22m.

Inside a painted wing tank:

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image6.html

Some use for fuel, I use for grey and black water and can also be used as
ballast. I have a 240v 1.5kw 1.5 inch pump which I use to rinse or fill. A
further same size trash pump empties tanks to hull discharge or the std
black water pump out deck fitting.


My 3 fuel tanks are in the engine room, total just under 5k litres.

Can't say I noticed any change in price specifying tanks and all the hole
cutting and welding threaded fittings to tanks.

6k ltr fresh water tanks sit between wing tanks. No loss of bilge storage
space - I have masses.

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerryR BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-15 19:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi James,

Yes, I think they are definitely worth installing, if it is a new build, I think that one of the reasons my builder suggested the uneconomical cost against normal ballast, was my tanks were/are to be constructed using stainless steel. But maintenance is a must especially if they are used mainly for one of the waters. I certainly think Colin's wing tanks ( link shows photos ) is a good way to go as the wings are basically wasted space and a good way to utilize them is see from his photos ( Descending to spray tank ) he has a hatch to enter them so the gaps between the baffles must be large enough to fit through ( without using Dickens type child chimney sweeps ). I wonder if a coating of something like fiberglass might work to separate liquid from steel to increase interval of maintenance
?

In my comments I suggested hull shape is important and a good thread to read including Colin's post is "" Dutch Barge Hull Form Branson Vs EuroShip 25 May 2013 15:21 "" post # 48610 and the whole thread covers it well Where Colin says he has 70cm depth aft and 40 cm fwd

Colin - what depth do you have in the wing tanks under main accom floor

Regards Tim
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-15 21:15:02 UTC
Permalink
My ballast tanks are painted with a water based epoxy that is designed for painting sewage farm tanks with a very long life in those conditions.

One day, I'd better open up and have a look!

As mentioned, 70cm depth under main galley/saloon floor and 40cm under fwd floor after superstructure break. Internal floor drop matches the steelwork.

Colin Stone
KEI


Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Chris Williamson
2014-09-15 21:39:02 UTC
Permalink
On corrosion, James, I suspect one could fit aluminium or magnesium anodes inside the tank. For ease of maintenance you could fit these just to one side of an inspection hatch, if you have enough fitted. Perhaps on the hatch, but I suspect any seals may lessen electrical continuity between the anode and the rest of the tank, in that instance.



Just a thought.






Chris
D. B. Orca




-------- Original message --------
Forum (B) - James Smith'
Date:2014/09/15 19:12 (GMT+00:00)
subscribers
tanks






Frank, hi,



good to hear from you.



How large is your boat and how much lower in the water is she with 20tons

additional water ballast?



I don't like the idea of permanent water ballast, though. The tanks would be

pretty inaccessible once the boat is fitted out and the possibility of

corrosion means (I guess) that they would need to be painted inside as well

as out and inspected regularly?



I will likely have two massive fuel tanks fitted with a capacity of around

10,000 litres. These will only be filled with diesel once every few years

for those long voyages, at other times they could be used as ballast tanks.

Two smaller tanks fore and aft might bring the total up to around 20,000

litres, same as you.



Kind regards,



James





-----Original Message-----

Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]


Sent: 15 September 2014 08:29

subscribers

tanks





Water ballast helps a lot in windy conditions, and off course under bridges.

It also makes for a quieter ride. Mine is very small with just 20 tons, but

it helps a lot on long journeys with an empty ship.



I use 2 submersible pumps to fill and empty them, takes about 30 min.



Frank
DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag
2014-09-15 21:46:05 UTC
Permalink
My boat is 62 x 6.4 The ballast tank in in the back just ahead of the wheelhouse. The ballast only pushes the back down 10 cm, but even that works very well when the wind blows from the side.

All this talk about dual use tanks for grey, black or ballast water I would disregard. Also carrying 10 or 20 tons of (White!!!!) diesel as ballast appears to be a little eccentric...
DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden
2014-09-15 22:26:03 UTC
Permalink
My take would be that with the present, but as yet unproven but considerable concerns about biodiesel content and consequent greater risk of fuel deterioration with age, the thrust might be towards smaller oil tanks, and I would certainly not contemplate dual use (water / fuel).

For a new build it is eminently possible to design a barge with good bunkerage capacities (as much drinking water as possible, possibly realistic constraints on fuel capacity), combined with an air draft and water draft within the (let's say) 3.2 and 1.2 metre realistic / ideal limits for (lets say) a 20 - 25 m ship, without designing in tanks specifically for ballast purposes. Tanks do cost money, whether integral or separate, if properly built and serviced. Equally, lateral stability is better dealt with in terms of hull design rather than by adding weight.

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-16 19:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Frank, hi,

comparing your size of boat with mine, a rough calculation tells me 10 tons
of ballast will drop my boat a little over 10cm. I may regret my words but
for the purposes a squeezing under bridges, I'm not sure it's worth it.

I'll speak to the boat designer, see what he says, but I won't push this
particular one very hard.

And I certainly don't intend using diesel as ballast!

Kind regards,

James



-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 22:46
subscribers
tanks


My boat is 62 x 6.4 The ballast tank in in the back just ahead of the
wheelhouse. The ballast only pushes the back down 10 cm, but even that works
very well when the wind blows from the side.

All this talk about dual use tanks for grey, black or ballast water I would
disregard. Also carrying 10 or 20 tons of (White!!!!) diesel as ballast
appears to be a little eccentric...
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-16 19:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Balliol, hi,

I may stick with (relatively) small fuel tanks, then, and will consider
ballast tanks as an option. If I ever contemplate one of those long voyages,
I can think again.

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 23:26
subscribers
tanks


My take would be that with the present, but as yet unproven but considerable
concerns about biodiesel content and consequent greater risk of fuel
deterioration with age, the thrust might be towards smaller oil tanks, and I
would certainly not contemplate dual use (water / fuel).

For a new build it is eminently possible to design a barge with good
bunkerage capacities (as much drinking water as possible, possibly realistic
constraints on fuel capacity), combined with an air draft and water draft
within the (let's say) 3.2 and 1.2 metre realistic / ideal limits for (lets
say) a 20 - 25 m ship, without designing in tanks specifically for ballast
purposes. Tanks do cost money, whether integral or separate, if properly
built and serviced. Equally, lateral stability is better dealt with in terms
of hull design rather than by adding weight.

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-16 19:39:07 UTC
Permalink
thanks chris :0)

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 22:15
subscribers
tanks


My ballast tanks are painted with a water based epoxy that is designed for
painting sewage farm tanks with a very long life in those conditions.

One day, I'd better open up and have a look!

As mentioned, 70cm depth under main galley/saloon floor and 40cm under fwd
floor after superstructure break. Internal floor drop matches the steelwork.


Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerryR BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-16 19:39:05 UTC
Permalink
and a good one chris :0)

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Chris Williamson [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 15 September 2014 22:39
subscribers
tanks


On corrosion, James, I suspect one could fit aluminium or magnesium anodes
inside the tank. For ease of maintenance you could fit these just to one
side of an inspection hatch, if you have enough fitted. Perhaps on the
hatch, but I suspect any seals may lessen electrical continuity between the
anode and the rest of the tank, in that instance.



Just a thought.






Chris
D. B. Orca




-------- Original message -------- Forum (B) - James Smith'
Date:2014/09/15 19:12 (GMT+00:00) subscribers tanks






Frank, hi,



good to hear from you.



How large is your boat and how much lower in the water is she with 20tons

additional water ballast?



I don't like the idea of permanent water ballast, though. The tanks would be

pretty inaccessible once the boat is fitted out and the possibility of

corrosion means (I guess) that they would need to be painted inside as well

as out and inspected regularly?



I will likely have two massive fuel tanks fitted with a capacity of around

10,000 litres. These will only be filled with diesel once every few years

for those long voyages, at other times they could be used as ballast tanks.

Two smaller tanks fore and aft might bring the total up to around 20,000

litres, same as you.



Kind regards,



James





-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]


Sent: 15 September 2014 08:29
subscribers
tanks





Water ballast helps a lot in windy conditions, and off course under bridges.

It also makes for a quieter ride. Mine is very small with just 20 tons, but

it helps a lot on long journeys with an empty ship.



I use 2 submersible pumps to fill and empty them, takes about 30 min.



Frank
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-16 20:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi James

After living aboard for over ten years I would make the following observations, which will inevitably differ to that of others.

Unless you are building a very large barge, which will navigate almost continuously, I would suggest that a large independent fuel tank is going to prove a long term liability, as will huge drinking water storage, and ballast tanks.

Fuel - white diesel. I would suggest for "normal" use, to protect against possible contaminated diesel that two or more smaller tanks, interlinked and able to be isolated from each other, so that during the winter problems with condensation does not build up to a problematic level, also "new" diesel that includes bio products has an affinity for water and has quite a short tank life. A total of about 1000 litres will take you a long way, there is always room to store an extra couple of hundred in plastic drums (bidons is the name here) for topping up the tanks.

Red diesel, if you are going to use red diesel for heating (so much already on the forum about this) a minimum of 500 litre, and suggest a maximum of around 1000 - 1500 litres is about right.

Water - Navigating in France, something between 1000 and 3000 litres is OK, we only have 1250 ltr which, even with fresh water fluhs toilets (Jabsco quiet flush - the most water economic that I know of) can last two of us 2 weeks with a degree of care, we have never been near to running out. Much more that 3 kl and you risk the real possibility of having "stale water" at some time, the smell and taste of which "sticks" in the pipework and a complete sterilisation is required.
Black water - I would suggest Polypropolene - Google "CAK Tanks" (Caravan Accessories of Kenolworth), they have a range of standard sizes which can be interlinked easily, I have seen "stainless" rot though, not nice - there are many grades "stainless". If intending to come to France the black tank will not realistically be used, as pump outs are almost unknown here, so make arrangements for direct underwater discharge.

Grey water - unless you want to go into Swiss waters the need is effectively never going to happen. The amount of grey water from washing and showers is just too much to store, and then what do you do with it.

Water Ballast - for boats in the 15 - 30 mtr x 1 to 1.5 metre draft, just rely on fixed ballast, at 19.98 mts we have about 12 tons which gives a draft of about 1.1 at the skeg, and enough stability for Channel crossing, this could be reduced by a couple of tonnes easily and we would still have plenty of airdraft, and if needed the wheelhouse will detach. The amount of tank room to make appreciable difference to draft is too big to be practical. The big commercials 38 mtrs to 120 mts long +, use it but only when running empty, and then generally to give the prop a bit more "bite" in the water, and they take on lots of tons of water.

Hope this helps

Paul Hayes
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-16 21:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Paul, hi,

thanks very much for all this info. I'll digest it all!

Kind regards,

James


-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Paul Hayes [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 16 September 2014 21:35
subscribers
tanks


Hi James

After living aboard for over ten years I would make the following
observations, which will inevitably differ to that of others.

Unless you are building a very large barge, which will navigate almost
continuously, I would suggest that a large independent fuel tank is going to
prove a long term liability, as will huge drinking water storage, and
ballast tanks.

Fuel - white diesel. I would suggest for "normal" use, to protect against
possible contaminated diesel that two or more smaller tanks, interlinked and
able to be isolated from each other, so that during the winter problems with
condensation does not build up to a problematic level, also "new" diesel
that includes bio products has an affinity for water and has quite a short
tank life. A total of about 1000 litres will take you a long way, there is
always room to store an extra couple of hundred in plastic drums (bidons is
the name here) for topping up the tanks.

Red diesel, if you are going to use red diesel for heating (so much already
on the forum about this) a minimum of 500 litre, and suggest a maximum of
around 1000 - 1500 litres is about right.

Water - Navigating in France, something between 1000 and 3000 litres is OK,
we only have 1250 ltr which, even with fresh water fluhs toilets (Jabsco
quiet flush - the most water economic that I know of) can last two of us 2
weeks with a degree of care, we have never been near to running out. Much
more that 3 kl and you risk the real possibility of having "stale water" at
some time, the smell and taste of which "sticks" in the pipework and a
complete sterilisation is required.
Black water - I would suggest Polypropolene - Google "CAK Tanks" (Caravan
Accessories of Kenolworth), they have a range of standard sizes which can be
interlinked easily, I have seen "stainless" rot though, not nice - there
are many grades "stainless". If intending to come to France the black tank
will not realistically be used, as pump outs are almost unknown here, so
make arrangements for direct underwater discharge.

Grey water - unless you want to go into Swiss waters the need is effectively
never going to happen. The amount of grey water from washing and showers is
just too much to store, and then what do you do with it.

Water Ballast - for boats in the 15 - 30 mtr x 1 to 1.5 metre draft, just
rely on fixed ballast, at 19.98 mts we have about 12 tons which gives a
draft of about 1.1 at the skeg, and enough stability for Channel crossing,
this could be reduced by a couple of tonnes easily and we would still have
plenty of airdraft, and if needed the wheelhouse will detach. The amount of
tank room to make appreciable difference to draft is too big to be
practical. The big commercials 38 mtrs to 120 mts long +, use it but only
when running empty, and then generally to give the prop a bit more "bite" in
the water, and they take on lots of tons of water.

Hope this helps

Paul Hayes
DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden
2014-09-16 21:34:16 UTC
Permalink
I agree with many of Paul's points and reiterate that there is a risk these days that excess diesel capacity could be a bad idea.

However in respect of water I still tend to think the more the better. Our tanks are galvanised steel which I personally built and installed in 1985 and, despite filling from all sorts of sources over the years (including fire brigade tenders in Brugge in the late eighties), we have never noticed any contamination or taint problem. That is despite both periods of heavy use and, more recently, periods of rather lesser throughput. The boat is not used residentially so water can stand for long periods. The tanks have never been treated with anything, let alone opened for inspection or cleaning.

Our most recent cruising experiences (with reportedly fewer water taps in France etc.) suggest that our capacity of 4000 litres is ample, but not excessive for a 30 metre barge with four heads, three showers, a bath, a washing machine and a dishwasher (and, this summer, two baby grandchildren!) However there have been times in the winter where capacity has been marginal if shore supplies were unavailable or frozen. So in respect of water I would still go for the Max. I don't think there is a problem with storing water, and if you have a delicate palate then there is always mineral water for the tea & toothbrush.

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden
2014-09-16 21:49:33 UTC
Permalink
As a ps to my last, on the subject of white diesel, we were concerned that our white capacity of 750 litres would prove marginal, but in practice there are enough garages close to the waterway for this not to have been any problem at all, perhaps only marginally aided by the fact that we carry a car so some, but not all, Carrefour shopping trips were accompanied by 5 x 20 litre jerry cans in the boot. That is with a relatively thirsty Daf consuming about 6 lph.

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-17 06:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Balliol, hi,

good to know, thanks.

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 16 September 2014 22:34
subscribers
tanks


I agree with many of Paul's points and reiterate that there is a risk these
days that excess diesel capacity could be a bad idea.

However in respect of water I still tend to think the more the better. Our
tanks are galvanised steel which I personally built and installed in 1985
and, despite filling from all sorts of sources over the years (including
fire brigade tenders in Brugge in the late eighties), we have never noticed
any contamination or taint problem. That is despite both periods of heavy
use and, more recently, periods of rather lesser throughput. The boat is not
used residentially so water can stand for long periods. The tanks have never
been treated with anything, let alone opened for inspection or cleaning.

Our most recent cruising experiences (with reportedly fewer water taps in
France etc.) suggest that our capacity of 4000 litres is ample, but not
excessive for a 30 metre barge with four heads, three showers, a bath, a
washing machine and a dishwasher (and, this summer, two baby grandchildren!)
However there have been times in the winter where capacity has been marginal
if shore supplies were unavailable or frozen. So in respect of water I would
still go for the Max. I don't think there is a problem with storing water,
and if you have a delicate palate then there is always mineral water for the
tea & toothbrush.

Balliol.
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-17 07:09:02 UTC
Permalink
James,

I would steer away from carrying and using bidons - hard work and potentially messy/polluting. A lorry delivery is much easier.

The condensation in tanks is a myth - other forum posts give more info.

I would have a tank(s) for white and red/kero that will take 1000 ltrs from a lorry, there is usually a significant price drop at 1000 ltrs. We burn 2.6ltr/hr and so far just over 600ltr from 1800ltr white tanks since mid May. Bio content and water affinity is a concern and I treat fuel with Soltron and no problems to date. Fit fuel filters with clear bowls so that you can see what is going on. Racor 500 MA are UK BSS approved and more importantly "spin" out any rubbish before water repellent elements. Units expensive, but elements very cheap.

6000 ltr fresh water has never gone stale in 10 years, I do treat with Calcium Hypochlorite at each fill. Filtered drinking water tap, so don't lug round heavy supplies of mineral water.

As to the original ballast tanks, mine are rarely used. In fact only to get under Osney Bridge in Oxford. As foul water tanks need a rinse ability, it was easy for them to double up as BTs. Grey for a wished for trip to Swedish canals and lakes.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-17 11:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Balliol

I did leave out that we use tank water for drinking, and base my water thoughts on that. Keep it fresh.

If drinking water is to be from bottled water then "stale" water for domestic use in no problem,. Indeed the ship next to us stores 21000 ltrs, and fills it twice a year, but the taste is not "too sweet" ha ha, and bottled water used for drinks and ice.

Best

Paul
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-17 11:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Colin

If condensation in tanks is a myth,.

Where does the water that I have drained from tanks over the last 40 years come from, and why should a bulk oil tanks be installed on a slope with the drain valve at the lowest point?

Why do heating engineers check for water in storage tanks during an annual service, and is one of the first checks made when being called out to breakdown?

Could it be that the condensation falls to the lowest point.

Why do we have water separators and water in oil warning devices?

If there is no condensation why should we be worried about Bio diesel having an affinity to water?

Also, why should transfer from bidons be "hard work and potentially messy / polluting". I use lorry delivery and get the driver to 3/4 fill the bidons after the tanks are full, then use a small pump and hose to decant into the tanks when needed, zero spillage and the hard work is removing the bidon lid and inserting a suction hose, my grandchildren could do that.

Baffled

Paul

Paul
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-17 11:58:20 UTC
Permalink
James,

I believe the overall view tips towards installing tanks on an initial build, and there are counter views for most of the views expressed by the various posts, but the time to install them at least cost is at the start and I would suggest it would be better to have them but not full use them as Colin's wing tanks than not have them and wish you had them at a later date. Some have argued against large tanks for various reasons but there is a difference between individual tank size and total capacity. My approach would be to have to use Colin's tank size of 1,800 ltrs for white diesel split into 3 x 600 ltrs in one or more locations. This would give ability to take bulk tanker delivery (Cost advantage )
/ have a reserve tank / be able to clean or De-water individual tanks / possibly transfer form one tank to another via a filter to maintain quality and many more not least balance and stability if the tanks were not co located.

I intend to use both a Genny and Kero powered C Heating so I will have a need for 3 types Red/White/ Kero will all be 3 splits of say 1,800 Ltrs.

Fresh water tanks could/should also be split, which would overcome some of the negatives and talking points, as you could design a system whereby you have dedicated tanks for the main uses 1). Toilets 2). Bathroom Showers and Basins 3). Kitchen Drinking and cooking 4). General washing but have a basic interconnecting ability.

The next group would be the Black & Grey tanks which I believe is where you can build in the flexibility and allow the different options but gives you a choice. Yes they would need all to be connected to pumps and valves with the ability to discharge either overboard or to a pump out ,but it gives you the choice of where and when. If set up correctly then these tanks could also be used as aux ballast from time to time as someone said they need a good rinse out every so often if they where large enough.

I see a situation during a winter where having larger grey tanks which could be used as reserve Black ones in the event of a freeze in would be a godsend and the same could be said for having storage of the other essentials in a situation where you cannot move to a supply point.

I guess it would be like buying a house and planing for future space needs which might mean initially spare available, rather than feeling uncomfortable and squeezing thinks in later on.

Of course there will be a cost to additional tanks, but in pure financial terms some will be off set by cheaper costs, but also I am sure that the ability to have if you wish ample reserves will reduce any potential stress or allow you to live with less concern or worry, which in itself is valuable.

As a final thought having larger fuel tanks, might allow you to take advantages of drops in global prices, or if in Europe but sterling based the exchange rate advantages.
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-17 16:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Paul,

No, tanks are baffled!

Don't think it is confusing and I am not an atmospheric physicist, but:

www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

In 10 years I have not had a drop of water in full or half full tanks, and my water drains are at the very bottom fwd corner of the tank.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.UK/internal/page/image20.html

Water gets in with the fuel or leaking fill cap. I put PTFE on threads and check a fuel sample on delivery in a jam jar.

Anyway, tanks have drains to cope with those possibilities.

And as domestic heating engineers check for water etc - all very valid but doesn't address why the water is there? Perhaps house/tank standards aren't very high?
And yes condensation is heavier than diesel.

I think I recall 10ltrs being the max diesel one should store at home in a non fuel tank for some safety reason. So why have approx 150ltrs in containers in/on a barge?

Especially on a new vessel when tanks can be built to the size required.

And I don't have a handy box of grandchildren to carry up bidons from their storage and open them!

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-17 20:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,

thanks, you're a hive of information as usual!

Yep, I'm thinking I'll have a smaller tank for red diesel as well as the two
tanks for white. I've made a note of the Soltron and the diesel filters.

Keeping a grey water tank for Sweden and elsewhere is a good tip. I was
thinking of doing without one but since there's space, I'll include one.

While I have you on the line hopefully...

I was eyeing up your flexible rubber tanks again. The aft space in my boat
is awkward but sizeable and I want to make full use of it. I know you've
posted this information before but can you share with me where you got these
tanks from? Many thanks.

The boat project is now officially underway. Talks with the designer and
mortgage lenders. So exciting!

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 17 September 2014 08:09
subscribers
tanks


James,

I would steer away from carrying and using bidons - hard work and
potentially messy/polluting. A lorry delivery is much easier.

The condensation in tanks is a myth - other forum posts give more info.

I would have a tank(s) for white and red/kero that will take 1000 ltrs from
a lorry, there is usually a significant price drop at 1000 ltrs. We burn
2.6ltr/hr and so far just over 600ltr from 1800ltr white tanks since mid
May. Bio content and water affinity is a concern and I treat fuel with
Soltron and no problems to date. Fit fuel filters with clear bowls so that
you can see what is going on. Racor 500 MA are UK BSS approved and more
importantly "spin" out any rubbish before water repellent elements. Units
expensive, but elements very cheap.

6000 ltr fresh water has never gone stale in 10 years, I do treat with
Calcium Hypochlorite at each fill. Filtered drinking water tap, so don't lug
round heavy supplies of mineral water.

As to the original ballast tanks, mine are rarely used. In fact only to get
under Osney Bridge in Oxford. As foul water tanks need a rinse ability, it
was easy for them to double up as BTs. Grey for a wished for trip to
Swedish canals and lakes.

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerryR BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-17 20:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Paul, hi,

thanks for all of this. I've digested it all and we're pretty much in line.

Ballast tanks, you're right, need to be so huge to make a different that
they're impractical. I'm better off making sure I have a means to get solid
ballast off and on the boat when I need to.

I still worry about all the bridges up to Oxford. Next spring I'll row from
Windsor up to Oxford taking pictures and measurements of every bridge I meet
but by then it'll be too late as the hull and deck will likely be built!

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Paul Hayes [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 16 September 2014 21:35
subscribers
tanks


Hi James

After living aboard for over ten years I would make the following
observations, which will inevitably differ to that of others.

Unless you are building a very large barge, which will navigate almost
continuously, I would suggest that a large independent fuel tank is going to
prove a long term liability, as will huge drinking water storage, and
ballast tanks.

Fuel - white diesel. I would suggest for "normal" use, to protect against
possible contaminated diesel that two or more smaller tanks, interlinked and
able to be isolated from each other, so that during the winter problems with
condensation does not build up to a problematic level, also "new" diesel
that includes bio products has an affinity for water and has quite a short
tank life. A total of about 1000 litres will take you a long way, there is
always room to store an extra couple of hundred in plastic drums (bidons is
the name here) for topping up the tanks.

Red diesel, if you are going to use red diesel for heating (so much already
on the forum about this) a minimum of 500 litre, and suggest a maximum of
around 1000 - 1500 litres is about right.

Water - Navigating in France, something between 1000 and 3000 litres is OK,
we only have 1250 ltr which, even with fresh water fluhs toilets (Jabsco
quiet flush - the most water economic that I know of) can last two of us 2
weeks with a degree of care, we have never been near to running out. Much
more that 3 kl and you risk the real possibility of having "stale water" at
some time, the smell and taste of which "sticks" in the pipework and a
complete sterilisation is required.
Black water - I would suggest Polypropolene - Google "CAK Tanks" (Caravan
Accessories of Kenolworth), they have a range of standard sizes which can be
interlinked easily, I have seen "stainless" rot though, not nice - there
are many grades "stainless". If intending to come to France the black tank
will not realistically be used, as pump outs are almost unknown here, so
make arrangements for direct underwater discharge.

Grey water - unless you want to go into Swiss waters the need is effectively
never going to happen. The amount of grey water from washing and showers is
just too much to store, and then what do you do with it.

Water Ballast - for boats in the 15 - 30 mtr x 1 to 1.5 metre draft, just
rely on fixed ballast, at 19.98 mts we have about 12 tons which gives a
draft of about 1.1 at the skeg, and enough stability for Channel crossing,
this could be reduced by a couple of tonnes easily and we would still have
plenty of airdraft, and if needed the wheelhouse will detach. The amount of
tank room to make appreciable difference to draft is too big to be
practical. The big commercials 38 mtrs to 120 mts long +, use it but only
when running empty, and then generally to give the prop a bit more "bite" in
the water, and they take on lots of tons of water.

Hope this helps

Paul Hayes
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-17 20:56:02 UTC
Permalink
James,

My fresh water tanks are rubber box bladders in plywood boxes. Tanks from Duratank and can be made to any shape.

www.hovercraftconsultants.co.uk/products/asp/prodtype.asp?prodtype=53&ph=cat&PT_MasterCategory=y

Installed now for 10 years and looked when I lasted lifted floor panel 3 years ago.

Recently saw some rubber pillow tanks in the open for firefighting. French company - www.citerneo.com makes them.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-17 20:58:01 UTC
Permalink
i remember the hovercraft connection now... :0)

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 17 September 2014 21:56
subscribers
tanks


James,

My fresh water tanks are rubber box bladders in plywood boxes. Tanks from
Duratank and can be made to any shape.

www.hovercraftconsultants.co.uk/products/asp/prodtype.asp?prodtype=53&ph=cat
&PT_MasterCategory=y

Installed now for 10 years and looked when I lasted lifted floor panel 3
years ago.
Recently saw some rubber pillow tanks in the open for firefighting. French
company - www.citerneo.com makes them.

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerryR BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-17 21:10:03 UTC
Permalink
James,
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
I still worry about all the bridges up to Oxford.
Are you going under Osney and above?

We went up to Eynsham and prior to Osney did it all w/h up and unballasted except for the Head of the River.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/delivery/page/image62.html

And Osney and upstream:

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/delivery/page/image73.html

Other pics inc Culham. Clifton Hampden awkward going downstream so w/h down.

I drew a red line on the design at 2.3m and told designer and builder nothing above which could not be removed. Steering wheel was above, so have a car steering wheel.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-17 21:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,
Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
Are you going under Osney and above?
God no!
Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
...except for the Head of the River.
Where's that?! I've just googled it and can't find it.

I'm afraid if I were to draw a line on the design below which everything can
be lowered it would be 3.0m, not 2.3m.

Kind regards,

James
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-18 06:49:02 UTC
Permalink
James,

Sorry, Head of the River is the pub - Folly Bridge - Abingdon Road in Oxford goes across it.

Where are you planning to moor?

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-18 11:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,

I am somewhat surprised by your answer ~
"Also, why should transfer from bidons be "hard work and potentially messy / polluting". I use lorry delivery and get the driver to 3/4 fill the bidons after the tanks are full, then use a small pump and hose to decant into the tanks when needed, zero spillage and the hard work is removing the bidon lid and inserting a suction hose, my grandchildren could do that. "

It looks more like your tanks are too small, rather then any love of bidons, which your require to be able to take delivery of a reasonable
sized delivery to qualify for a lower price per Ltr. If you have the space for Bidons ( which are also only 3/4 utilized anyway ) why not have extra tank(s) constructed so you can accept your desired amount into proper and secure storage tanks.

As this thread was started to give James some advice in a new build then perhaps you might like to suggest a desirable quantity for delivery , so he can plan what size to bunker for ( he has already declared he will go for 750 Ltrs ) which I suspect is due to the members writing up the dangers of the bug, which others like Colin who seems to take great preventive measures and successfully overcome this threat.

I believe 750 Ltrs is too small and certainly too small for a new build, when you have the open space and ease to put in what you want, I would advise that you increase this, but if you are still spellbound for 750 why not make multiple tanks, so you have the flexibility later once you have gained your own experience, also like myself what will you do if at a later date, you wish to use the cheaper Kero for CH
but don't have the bunkering capacity, then additional separate tanks could be a godsend be they Ex Red or White

If you have seen the thread " Water and Diesel Don't Mix - Help! " by Peter Cawson whose ( helpful ) guests filled his diesel tank with water by mistake would scream for a multiple tank system
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-18 18:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles

It seems that we are getting a bit hung up on personal preferences and what is perceived to be perfect here.

There has to be a balance between cost of a "fill up", tank life of fuel, cost and affordability of the new build shell, we all have different budgets E1/2 million Euroships are not for all.

I have 800 litres of "white" tank capacity, a bit more might be useful. Any in bidons is for on board reserve. 3/4 full gives an easily movable weight, why make hard work.

Perhaps I have been getting barging wrong, after, narrow boating for 30 years with over 5000 miles covered in the UK system, over the last 10 years living aboard, and navigating over 10 000 kms, from the Mersey Estuary, English Channel and down to the Canal de Midi, oh not to mention navigating the Bristol Channel, and Menai straits many times at all tide states, day and night.

"Why not have extra tanks constructed?" Unlike many "Modern Bargees", I do not have a bottomless pocket.

"Secure storage," Without seeing where I store any bidons on board you are not qualified to comment on this.

Going North from Saint Jean de Losne on the now named Champagne canal, the next canal side bunkering establishment is at Compiegne north of Paris, this incidentally is the first one coming south from Calias.

The two tanks give a capacity gives a range of about 1200 kms . So this gives a reasonable range.

Here in France kero is not used for central heating, so "red" tankage is required. Tanker deliveries start at 500 lts. so it may be necessary sometimes to put a drop of red in bidons, if the tank started 1/2 full will not take the full 500 L.

Red and White tanks must not be interconnected, if they are the Douane (French Customs) can and do levy high fines.

On the subject of "Water and Diesel....." I was one of the few who offered a practical solution that would work.

Paul Hayes
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-18 22:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,
Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
Sorry, Head of the River is the pub - Folly Bridge - Abingdon Road in
Oxford goes across it.
Thank goodness. I'd never squeeze under that one.

I'm not sure about mooring. I posted something on the forum two nights ago
but haven't had any response. It would be good to have an idea as it may
help with the mortgage.

Do you have any ideas? I was going to try to move around between Reading and
Oxford, bridges permitting.

I visited Chris Williamson further up the Thames near LechLade last weekend.
He's found a friendly farmer and has a place to moor. I was hoping to do the
same or something similar although I understand such arrangements are
becoming problematic.

Kind regards,

James
DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-09-19 09:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Returning from the Head of the River pub to the original subject of tanks (Ballast/Fuel/Water)...

On fuel tank sizes:
Colin points out that there is a price advantage for delivery of 1000L and Paul, that the minimum delivery is about 500L. Thus if planning to minimise diesel storage to avoid bugs, it would make sense to plan for about 50% above one of these levels, i.e. 1500L or 750L - unless you have a particular reason to need more, like Chris Grant's 2200km travel in a summer.
There seems to be a consensus that two tanks are preferable to one, for dealing with emergencies like Peter's water in the fuel tank or perhaps for flexibility of use (though as Paul points out red & white tanks [i]should[/i] never be connected!). I inherited two 500L tanks, for red and white, so deliveries are rarely possible. I may add a third tank, not connected to the engine, for storing white in the summer and red in winter.

On Bidons:
They have their uses. As deliveries are rarely practical for me because of the small tanks, I mostly keep topped up during the summer using a bike trailer and bidons whenever there's a nearby cheap self-service garage.

On Water:
The range of water tank sizes among barges varies enormously - from 10,000L to zero! The zero uses filtered canal water directto the taps. For those without filters, the 'right' size depends very much on one's life-style, which has barely been mentioned. Do you use baths or showers. Do you have access to water supplies on your winter mooring? Do you have frequent visitors? (If so, double or treble the tank size!)
Using drinking water to flush down the toilet seems daft to me - but I've inherited a canal-flush system that works very well. For the two of us, a 900L tank can last up to three weeks (and will last indefinitely when the water filtration system is complete). It's interesting how this compares with Paul's 1250L lasting up to two weeks, including toilet flushing. 300L/week v. 600L/week, which gives a rough idea of the quantity flushed away.

As there have been so many useful comments on this, I'll be summarising them in an article for the Knowledgebase shortly.

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-19 12:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,

Firstly I feel that you have got me wrong and I was not trying to criticize you, in fact I have read several of your posts on different subject and feel your contributions are very positive to the forum. Nor where my suggestions aimed in any way at you, but to James who had asked the question in the first place. I fully understand that my suggestions did have cost implications, but my aim was to put lines of thoughts into his mind and of course generate counter suggestions, which has happened. At the end of the day James will make up his mind by considering his own budget and set of circumstances and life style, but it is important that the people in the forum provide different options to show the plus's and minus's and perhaps a consensuses if possible.

Again I have not any doubt that you have vast experience which is shown by your various posts and my suggestions where aimed at a new build when it is the best a most economic time to install anything, primarily for James, but also to get comments on my own ideas for my proposed design for next year. ( Not a E 500K job )

I wrote this reply last night but pushed the wrong button and lost the lot and then switched to watching the Scottish Referendum and so some of my comments have been address by posts today.

Firstly Paul's comments seem to be based on a European Cruising perspective where as prior to Jame's last post where he appears to be Thames based neither of us knew his cruise area.

For Pete I think Paul's 500 Ltr minimum Delivery is a European one , but my experience in UK is that would rise to 1,000 Ltrs to avoid not getting a punitive delivery charge. I have just run through the internet site for several prices per ltr ex 5% Vat for red Diesel at today's prices in Northern Ireland Lough Erne delivery and got the prices for my local delivery.
https://www.boilerjuice.com/orderTankeredOil.php?pg=2#quote

500 Ltrs 64.83 per ltr
750 Ltrs 64.83 per ltr
1000 Ltr 62.33 per ltr
1200 Ltr 61.75 per ltr
1500Ltrs 61.30 per ltr ( no decrease for next quote of 1,800 Ltrs )
1800 Ltr 61.30 per ltr This should allow people to balance cost of tank to fuel cost saving.

There are some companies which have the ability to deliver different natures in a single tanker, which could be utilized to allow the company quote a lower unit price with a split of 2 natures ( Red diesel/ Kero or White Diesel/ Red Diesel for examples ) as basically the company is spreading the physical cost of truck-age over the number of liters. In my own case for domestic Kero I often collect 5 x Jerry cans from my local supplier by car, which is the very cheapest way from them as they then levy no markup for delivery.

I also think that when your are considering your budget and what benefit you will get for each expenditure, then if the budget is finite and you are deciding which of your priorities to include, then the economics of ease/cost of installation between the initial new build and retro fitting should be considered, in the case of tanks as other things can be retro fitted at no major extra cost, but tanks in general and their connections would I expect be far more costly to retro fit.

Another consideration to providing a certain amount of flexibility in having tanks split or additional ones, is it should increase ease of resale, if not value.

Regards Tim Golden
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-19 19:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Pete

I should have mentioned the washing machine as well as two people shoering three times a day when the temperature is 38 in the shade, that is when you can find it.

The Jabsco Quiet Flush literally let the user decide how much flush water is used. Visitors tend to use more.

This winter I am planning to put a fresh or canal selector in at least one of the toilets, but will continue to use fresh while on the mooring. Our water supply is 70 cm below ground an has only frozen once, two years ago when we had -18 for about twelve nights, then we were sitting in 30 cms of ice, Then we started to conserve and even brought a few litre of bottled drinking water.

In practice I am never more than a week away from from a top up of the tank.

Paul
DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
2014-09-19 19:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tim

Sorry if my reply came over a bit "tetchy". One of the biggest problems with forum "chat" is that the written word in black and white is "hard", whereas the same thing said face to face can have a different understanding, there is no room for inference when writing.

It is easy sitting here to loose sight of the fact that people use their barges in a lot of other locations, each with its own independent pros and cons.

The whole idea of barging appeals to a very special group of people, all of which by the nature of the beast have strong personalities, this is the only thing I have found truly in common with Bargees, especially live aboards.

I am also aware that I can come over as a bit outspoken, but I do have an inbuilt aversion to people being ripped of by clever marketing marketing people in the "Special Marine Equipment" market.

I am fortunate to have had an excellent engineering training back when Britain was a world leader in manufacturing, and 45 years of continued training and development plus reincarnations at various levels. Added to the joy of being a retained firefighter for nearly 20 years, This makes me what I am.

Lets hope we can share a beer together someday, thanks for your comments on my posts, and yes in my opinion split / multi tanks are the best way to go.

Paul
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-19 20:21:02 UTC
Permalink
The other point to consider is that although canal side fuelling points may be few and far between, a lorry delivery will get just about anywhere where there is a lane by a canal.

I find the local tourist office invariably has a commerce directory and can provide details of fuel companies. Even an email to a TO a while down the canal should get a response.

And a domestic oil company is often cheaper than canal side - Briare is €1.53/ltr for white, local oil company will be much the same as supermarket average price. Max Guerdin, Compeigne, wasn't very cheap either.

The lorries we have used bring red, GNR and white at the same time.

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
2014-09-19 20:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,

I look forward too a beer or two somewhere and sometime, and we seem to have some past experiences in common. I ended up the Fire office of half of Aldershot Military Town, while serving with the Para's in the 70's as the result of getting an A grade in a Surrey Fire brigade course. I also ran a company specializing in Earth moving and rock breaking in the Oil & Gas fields in the Middle East ,and had to develop high class engineering methods to maintain a position as country market leader.

The principle I am trying to include in the design of my Barge is to utilize my capital in a manner to a cost effect manner and attempt to reduce the running costs to a minimum, as long as the capital expenditure justifies it ( I read economics and accounting at university )
and am attempting a cost benefit analyst on each of the build items. Hence thoughts like bunkering able to minimize per ltr cost or buy during drops in price or exchange rate. The Idea of using kero instead of Red Diesel for CH is also price driven an example using the same boiler juice website Kero for 1000Ltrs is 52.7p per ltr including Vat against the red at 62.33 + 5% Vat but with a change of nozzles
could convert it to red so you have flexibility ( you made great comments on my heating oil thread ), but you could only consider that now or in the future if you have the tank-age both sufficient and split up enough to be able to hold 3 natures

Regards Tim

Loading...