Different heating oils

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

I am currently drawing up the spec's for a new build 55ft x 13.5ft aft deck DB, and at present weighing up the pros and cons of how to heat it, together with fuel tank sizes-types and sizes. In principle the tanks will be multiple and of sufficient size to have the ability to receive shore based tanker deliveries of 1,000 + liters. What surprises my novice self is the total talk of red diesel powered systems, where as a check today online to my Post Code for a 1,200 L delivery of Red Diesel was 66.4p where as Kerosene28 was 52.8p and premium Kerosene for Boilers 52.9p per liter.

From the above, it at first glance, seems best to use a system running on one of the Kerosene's, and I read somewhere the only difference needed in a boiler between the types of fuel, is the nozzle used.

If the above is correct, then the most cost effective route seems to be a Kerosene burning boiler + Tank of say 1,200-1,500 L, in addition to either one or two Diesel tanks to cover the main engine propulsion and generator. ( in my case I will have a Hydraulic 6KVa running of the main engine PTO + a small diesel portable Hyundai 5Kva for casual battery charging while not on the move .

Is my line of thought correct or have I missed some major drawbacks and does anyone have any advice on which boiler

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
If the above is correct, then the most cost effective route seems to be a Kerosene burning boiler + Tank

Yes - taking account of any extra cost in building in another tank. I am not sure why I didn't fully appreciate the cheaper kero 12 years ago, but having gas CH at home probably had something to do with it!

But you may find with a very large kero tank, it may get stale or infected by bugs. We use 400ltrs in a live aboard winter.

Searching the forum will provide lots on info on domestic oil boilers both condensing and non condensing and pros and cons of diesel and kero burners - eg small diesel ones need a heater. FWIW, I don't think the condensing efficiency saving outweighs the extra cost.

Also make sure that you make best use of free heat from the engine and generator.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Thanks Colin,
Yes, it does seem to be the best route, in terms of bugs which effects diesel, you have a point, but I am not sure if Kerosene
is effected in the same way - I left about 500 L of Kerosene in my home CH tank ( 1,600 L ) for 4 years, while abroad with no ill effects.
Is this bug for all fuels or just Diesel ? if Kerosene is not effected, then this would be another reason, as well as price for using it. Any ideas if Kerosene is liable to this bug infection ?

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Well, the bugs live at the moisture /fuel interface in the tank bottom. No moisture = should be no bugs. If fuel is treated when filling, it should not be an issue. Until a top up this spring, my red diesel dated from 2005 and 2008, and has not been a problem.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
a small diesel portable Hyundai 5Kva for casual battery charging while not on the move .

Isn't that likely to be aircooled and very noisy?

I view my generator as a CHP plant - when it runs for say the oven, it also charges the batteries and heats 2 water calorifiers, both electrically and by its cooling water.
CH boiler has not been used for 2 1/2 months now.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Consider cruising grounds, kero is not used on the continent in large quantities other than for room heaters, sold at the Brico and supermarket in 20 ltr drums, at around 22 E per 20 ltrs. Tanker delivery of "Red" or "Super Red" easily available at around 95 cents per ltr.

UK is about the only country using kero widely for domestic boilers.

Hope this helps

Paul Hayes

PS Ditto Colin, about 400 lts per winter here in France (not worth cost of condensing boiler) with about 4- 5 cubic metres of wood at 40 E per cube.
Perkins powered genny very happy on "Red". Lots cheaper than running main engine on white. Picked genny up second hand 6kw for £600 (looked on Ebay for a long time) and converted to keel cooled (and calorifier) for about another £60. Lots cheaper than a "Marine Genny"

[DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag]

Red diesel cost 0.74 Euros at present. 0.95 Is extortion....

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Colin,

Yes, it will be slightly more noisy than your Fischer Panda 12Kva, which is 54db(A) @ 7m, with my proposed one at 70 db(A),
however the idea was to have an independent method over and above the Main Engine PTO powered Hydraulic Generator and Solar Panels,so I did not need to run the Main 100 Hp engine, just to charge batteries ( I will also have the same spin of systems on my main engine/generator.) and also the ability to run any emergency items like pumps, if there is a main engine breakdown, the one I am considering is in the link below, which also has smooth power output compatible with PC or other sensitive instruments

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/Hyundai_DHY6000SELR.htm

For Paul,

Availability in Europe could be addressed with a boiler which can have its nozzle changed, and a fuel line crossover switch between tanks ( memories of the old Army Land rover twin tank changeover switches) or a full tank prior to crossing the channel and at 0.52.8p
a Liter would seem the best way, if it was an extended cruise away from UK.

I am yet to find a suitable boiler in my search to date hence this thread hoping for some advise for someone out there , when I say suitable what I mean is primary run on Kerosene, but with the easy ability to switch nozzles, for Red Diesel ( read in a blog somewhere of one but cannot remember which blog - what I do remember was that this type of boiler would be much cheaper to have serviced as a local CH engineer could do it and not a specialist Marine Company one ).

Do the Pro's out-way the cons - to date I think so.

Have a look at the below online site for UK wide fuel deliveries which is where I got the 3 prices in my first message at the start

http://www.boilerjuice.com/index3.php

Tim Golden

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Any small domestic boiler, balanced flue or not, will do and a small burner capable of 15kw, ample for 55ft, - 30kw will do, just make sure it has a nozzle heater. Also min electronics - burner on off and min max and over heat thermostats. I use a delay off relay to keep the CH pump running when firing stops, so the heat in the boiler box is used. Small flue diameter is useful.

My Kabola B17, apart from the firebox, is essentially domestic - burner is domestic Elco Ecoflam, current range are Vectrons and CH pump is whatever I got from Screwfix. All 240v.

Nozzles are easy - Danfoss do a handy spreadsheet, just google for nozzlecalc.xls which does both 35 and 28 second oil. Basically for 15kw on diesel you need a nozzle supplying 1.5kg/hr at the std 10 bar. Which from memory is probably about a 0.4 usgal/hr nozzle.

That generator will be well noisy. I have a small portable petrol gen and chainsaw with same noise figures. Awful and very unfriendly to anyone within 500m!

What is the attraction of a hydraulic AC generator? 1 or 2 decent sized alternators should do with inverter(s) - which I guess you will have anyway?
Although I have 2, one Victron 2500w powers everything onboard - oven, WM and tumble dryer, quite happily - but not concurrently!

Colin Stone
KEI


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[DBA Forum (B) - Barrie and Carole Grant]

Charles, if you are in the UK you must get a note in writing that the oil company will [u]actually[/u] deliver to your boat. For the past year plus we have been unable to find an oil company that will deliver to a boat in the water. This is in SE England. We have had to resort to small amounts carried by us and added to our tank for heating. The general policy about delivery has changed due to ridiculous H & S concerns. For some reason H & S thinks there is less chance of oil getting in the water when we use many gerry cans and a funnel than the sophisticated sensors and computer controlled systems of the professional oil delivery trucks.

Best of luck!
Barrie and Carole Grant
MV SilkPurse

[DBA Forum (B) - Janice Wallace]

Hi,
Had no problem getting 3500 litres delivered on the Weaver.

H&S as in the excutive could care less about deliveries. The companies have an obligation to risk assess every operation for both safety and pollution risk. Falling in is a risk they may not have assessed !! Or want to.

Mostly down to the driver there and then unless it's company policy so if you look and sound competent it helps. They prefer to stand at the truck so the flow can be stopped at source rapidly. Suggest when ordering that it will be assisted fill. A burst hose or overfil could cost them tens of thousands in clean up and fines

It may be that the insurance companies are the problem.

Try a local plant hire company for a bowser to receive the fuel then pump into the barge. What you do with it after purchase in no concern of the supplier.

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Colin,

In answer to your question about why I am considering a hydraulic Generator it mainly for the following reasons

1). I plan to have Hydraulic Propulsion and it fits this quite nicely
2). The actual generator is small in size for the 6Kva ( 611 x 250 x 241mm ) and can be fitted in any where is it is feed from the PTO
by delivery and return hoses. I plan to have a separate battery and electrical room from the main Engine so will remote it there
and have minimum cable runs.
3). It has a flow bypass, so when it is not switched on to produce power, will draw an absolute minimum of effort out of the engine and
when in use will give the full output of 6 KVa with only 21x lpm taken from one of the PTO's
4). Cost it is about a two and a half times less than the cost of a 5Kva Travel power mounted on the engine and also much less than
separate engined Generator like yours.

5). The disadvantage is of course if you have a main engine failure you have no power generation - hence the small cheap portable
as a reserve

I will be leaving sufficient space to retro fit a conventional generator at a later date if it warrants it after experience of my usage - main engine usage.

I know from your website, which I admire, that you ruled out Hyd Propulsion, however I want it for many reasons, not least to run Bow + Stern Thrusters, Spud legs , and fore & aft winches and ability to use a ( dry ) drive pod and also position the engine to the side, plus
with a VD pump I can have instant control at set revs. I also plan to fit a 15KVa hydraulic pump into the system to allow a get home ability
and low power canal travel which would be run of a large Battery Bank.

Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Charles

In one reincarnation i used to service / maintain oil fired boilers. There is lots written on the forum on this subject, use the search facility.

I went for a domestic boiler ( non condensing) room sealed (balanced flue). My chosen make was a Mistral (Boiler house model) which has a Rielo burner that any service engineer can set up. Spares are available at reasonable cost anywhere.

Nozzle change for different fuels, yes that is part of it, plus pump pressure and air settings. To do this properly a Flue Gas Analyser is required.

Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Paul,

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes
plus pump pressure and air settings. To do this properly a Flue Gas Analyser is required.

And once this is done by a boiler chap with his meter etc and the settings noted, then on changing nozzle the appropriate settings for kero or diesel can be applied. The air setting is often on a scale, but one would need a pressure gauge to adjust pressure, but those aren't particularly expensive.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

OK - and crumbs!

I have to say that it all sounds a little excessive, complicated and costly for a 55ft barge, unless of course you are a hydraulics engineer and have all the bits etc.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Colin,

I am not a practical Hydraulic engineer, but I did run a specialist heavy rock breaking / Trenching company digging pipelines for the Oil & Gas industry in the Middle East, with 18 JCB's of different sizes and 8 x 50 ton Cat Hydraulic Excavators with hydraulic hammers of 12,000 joule power running on 420 Lpm flow @ 165Bar complete with a hydraulic and mechanical workshops - so I am used to and like Hydraulics.

For Paul,

Thank-you and I found that useful and will consider a Mistrial Boiler house , I am interested why as a guy who serviced boilers you went for the non condensing version and not the condensing one which all the sales talk says is 25% more efficient - is it due to the marine application or some other reason. Would it be worth going for a combi version for hot water or would it clash with the engine to calorifiers and heat exchangers

PS I am known is Tim ( not my first name )

Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Mclaren]

Hi. I fitted a hydraulic driven 240v Ac alternator to Maximilian run off the gardner, For all the excellent reasons u enumerate. It ran beautifully or so it seemed but the electricity it produced was never clean enough reliably and upset the victrons hugely!! C

Charlie McLaren...Sent from my iPhone

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
Hi Colin,
In answer to your question about why I am considering a hydraulic Generator it mainly for the following reasons
1). I plan to have Hydraulic Propulsion and it fits this quite nicely
2). The actual generator is small in size for the 6Kva ( 611 x 250 x 241mm ) and can be fitted in any where is it is feed from the PTO
by delivery and return hoses. I plan to have a separate battery and electrical room from the main Engine so will remote it there
and have minimum cable runs.
3). It has a flow bypass, so when it is not switched on to produce power, will draw an absolute minimum of effort out of the engine and
when in use will give the full output of 6 KVa with only 21x lpm taken from one of the PTO's
4). Cost it is about a two and a half times less than the cost of a 5Kva Travel power mounted on the engine and also much less than
separate engined Generator like yours.
5). The disadvantage is of course if you have a main engine failure you have no power generation - hence the small cheap portable
as a reserve
I will be leaving sufficient space to retro fit a conventional generator at a later date if it warrants it after experience of my usage - main engine usage.
I know from your website, which I admire, that you ruled out Hyd Propulsion, however I want it for many reasons, not least to run Bow + Stern Thrusters, Spud legs , and fore & aft winches and ability to use a ( dry ) drive pod and also position the engine to the side, plus
with a VD pump I can have instant control at set revs. I also plan to fit a 15KVa hydraulic pump into the system to allow a get home ability
and low power canal travel which would be run of a large Battery Bank.
Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Charles,

My system which is the Mermaid Marine 6Kva will be similar in concept with a alternator close coupled to a hydraulic motor. I expect the ability of it to produce clean electricity will depend on the quality and the type of the alternator not the concept which I believe in Mermaid's case has been well designed and tested. Or in your case perhaps it could be due to a variable hydraulic flow ? In the mermaid case it has a sensor type control which does not let it's generation to start until the correct flow is present and also bypasses any extra flow and consequently only allows the correct flow. I wonder if your system has the same strict flow regulation which might effect quality of the juice produced ?

Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
the non condensing version and not the condensing one which all the sales talk says is 25% more efficient

They are not. This was discussed previously in the forum but non My Kabola B17 is supposedly 91% sufficient
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heating oils
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Hi Colin,

I am not a practical Hydraulic engineer, but I did run a specialist heavy rock breaking / Trenching company digging pipelines for the Oil & Gas industry in the Middle East, with 18 JCB's of different sizes and 8 x 50 ton Cat Hydraulic Excavators with hydraulic hammers of 12,000 joule power running on 420 Lpm flow @ 165Bar complete with a hydraulic and mechanical workshops - so I am used to and like Hydraulics.

For Paul,

Thank-you and I found that useful and will consider a Mistrial Boiler house , I am interested why as a guy who serviced boilers you went for the non condensing version and not the condensing one which all the sales talk says is 25% more efficient - is it due to the marine application or some other reason. Would it be worth going for a combi version for hot water or would it clash with the engine to calorifiers and heat exchangers

PS I am known is Tim ( not my first name )

Regards Tim



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[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
the non condensing version and not the condensing one which all the sales talk says is 25% more efficient

They are not - a bit like new car fuel consumption figures.
This was discussed previously in the forum but my Kabola B17 is supposedly 91% sufficient and a condensing 98%. Eg 7 litres less in every 100. Or 28ltrs/winter. Or £23. An small improvement for around 3 times the price.

The only reason my home gas condensing boiler is more efficient is because it doesn't have a pilot light going 24/7!

And more electronic bits to go wrong.
Colin Stone
KEI

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[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Tim

I am not going to go into depths of system design and calculation, but just to say a condensing boiler to be at high efficiency requires the heating system, rads, pipe losses, circulation velocity, and to some extent hydraulic balance all to be specifically designed. In another incarnation I worked on design, installation and commissioning of commercial (schools, old folks homes etc.)

The idea of just changing a boiler and leaving the rads the same, as in the case of many houses just does not give the savings advertised.

It is because of condensing boilers being a legal requirement for domestic premises that kero is the fuel used. In commercial premises it is still legal to install "red" burning boilers.

Kero is 28 second heating oil, "Red" heating oil is 35 second, and diesel is 32 second, these figures relate to viscosity ratings. Each has different burning environment requirements.

It is possible to run condensing boilers on 35 sec, but not really practical on the small units we use, for the short burn hours in use (my boiler is set at 18 kWs and even in cold -15 weather it cycles about 50% of the time), over about 250 kWs with a fairly constant load you stand a chance. Again I am not going into the reasons, too long.

Marine and Agri Red are 32sec with a red dye added. "White" is 32 sec road diesel.

Whilst diesels will run on 35 sec, it does not have "anti knock" and lubrication agents in it. For the genny I use a diesel additive made by Morris Oils to give the Red a bit of a "lift".

For Colin

It's really not just a case of watching over the blokes shoulder and noting the settings, each change of fuel, air, (even warm air in the summer and cold air in the winter), pressure settings or nozzle, do require a FGA to be used, not only to obtain the optimum thermal efficiency, but to ensure that no dangerous gasses are produced in the act of combustion.

Yes I can get a boiler to run quite near to optimum by eye, ear, feel and yes smell, but I attended many courses and was doing the job on all sorts of domestic and commercial boilers (up to 1 500 000 lbs steam/hour) on heavy oil for years.

For Frank

I agree, but the price here is the price, and if you do not pay it, you don't get it in your tank, he he he. Plus the fact that we buy much smaller quantities than you.

Maybe as a commercial user you get a bit of a "Tax Break"?

Hope this helps.
Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Paul,

I am not suggesting watching over his shoulder but getting the boiler set up for each fuel and with the engineer's agreement noting the settings. I don't get a boiler engineer with an FGA on warm day in winter to adjust the burner.

I discovered in 2012, when I closely studied the Elco burner manual, that my s/h Kabola, which had been running quite happily since I installed it in 2006 and hadn't touched anything since its previous owner, had its air flap valve set to 1.5 instead of 4.5, arguably way too little air. Adjusted to manual settings and later serviced by Pete Jeffs, with FGA and soot disc, who confirmed all was hunky dory on std settings. Perhaps just the robustness of a Kabola?

Also, what viscosity is "fioul domestique", a red colour, in France? If 35 second, I guess neither boiler or genny will be happy as both are set up for red diesel/gazole.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Ian Hollands]

Think outside the box! With the benefit of hind sight, I would use a small domestic gas fired boiler set up for propane. Why? Lower initial cost , simplicity, reliability. The down side, higher fuel cost , but it is easily available and you can get a bottle when you go for the groceries.

The other thing I would insist on , is under floor heating. The cabin sole (floor) is at the same temperature as the water outside, even when the room temp is sweltering. Despite having insulation we use footstools to avoid cold feet.

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Ian

Yes a propane fired boiler is a clean alternative, we had one on a narrowboat.

Main problem is the amount of gas they use as a live aboard, a 13kg bottle lasted less than a week in cold conditions. I soon got fed up with changing bottles especially as it always seemed that one needed changing when it was raining.

The idea of bulk tanks for propane was discussed on the forum a while ago, but quite honestly the practical problems make it almost a non starter. We used to install them at schools where there was no "mains gas".

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Sorry Ian,

Pressed the wrong key and sent an incomplete post, easily done.

Underfloor heating, again I have, experience with this in schools, village halls, old folks homes, and yes in theory you are correct it should be considered for a boat.

The main problem is getting enough insulation under the water circulating pipes, in commercial properties we used to specify a minimum 250 mm low thermal transfer concrete slab with a minimum of 100 mm polystyrene on top of that, then the circulation.

The control of the circulating water temperature can also be problematic on such small installations as a boat, The system should be designed for a flow temperature of 30 degrees with a temperature drop on return of 5 degrees. A motorised ,three port mixing valve, controlled by a micro computer maintains that temperature. Not simple for the average boater (or boat yard) to repair.

The second problem with underfloor heating is ,the long preheat times required, and the slow reaction times to solar gain, both not practical really on a boar. I have seen the "optimiser" bringing school heating "on" before midnight on Sunday to bring a school up to occupation temperature (18 C) by 9.00 am Monday morning, and that is from a "condensation setback" temperature of 10 C.

I am sure others will want to disagree with on this, but the above is based on my experiences.

I agree cold feet are not nice. I would love to have a definitive answer for you.

Best, Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the replies, which are helpful, but does not exactly answer the question concerning Condensing Boilers, as in my case it will
be a new installation, so the plumbing and radiator sizes can be matched on the outset. I am not sure where Colin is coming from concerning "3 times the price", unless this was his experience right at there introduction of these boilers, Looking online the current cost of a Mistral CBH1 15-20kW Boiler House Condensing Oil Boiler is 899 pounds ( I cannot find a price for the Non Condensing one ) but I am sure a lowly 899, is not 3 times ! Looking at an efficiency tables, as the link below gives, the apple of apple, Mistral 92.5% verses 83.4% for the Non Condensing 15-20Kw Mistral's.

http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/efficiency-tables.php?make=Mistral

Do you still advise the Non Condensing one, despite the quoted efficiency tables, and what how appears in today's prices, not much if any price difference. Is there a technical reason for Marine use for not using a Condensing type ?

With regard to your comments about underfloor heating , which I had put on my list to evaluate compared to the simpler Radiator standard solution, you have steered me away from that idea , but as far as cold feet are concerned, which is Ian's concern, I would have thought a good sandwich for the cabin floor of Ply - (rock wall or spray-foam) - wood of some sort, should be sufficient to keep the toes warm and is not really any less insulation that the sides etc. of the Barge. with spray foam I would expect being the better option, or even a top covering of carpet.

Kind Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Colin

"Fioul Domestic" and "Fioul Superior" are both "Red" two slightly different things, both being of "heating oil" specification, rather than "automotive" specification. "Fioul Superior" burns slightly cleaner, and is more tolerant to very low temperatures (in my mind worth the extra few cents per litre).

"Fioul Domestic" is 35 sec heating oil.

On the viscosity scale "Fioul Superior" is around the 32 second, but does not have the additives that make diesel engines really happy, but they will run on it without too much problem.

White diesel which we use for propulsion, is of Road vehicle quality, both boilers and genny will be happy on it, as it is of "best" specification.

Switching between any of the fuels, including adding 20% kero (28 sec to make Ros'e, to either 35 sec or 32 more combustible in the depths of winter) will require small adjustments to the boiler, hence the use of a FGA.

Manufactures publish settings in their literature, which are for guidance only, Even a one metre difference between flue lengths at the "factory" and the actual installation can mean different burner settings.

Big commercial boilers have constant flue gas analysis equipment which constantly alter the burner settings. On our small boilers the best time to set the burner is on a cool spring or autumn day. In winter it is not only the viscosity of the oil that differs, but the ail is denser,

It's a big subject and very important on large plants where a couple of % increase or decrease in efficiency can cost thousands of £'s, but with our small boilers it is less so.

Hope this helps

Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Yes - my prices are from last time I looked. Hadn't realised they had dropped so much.

And if that includes a blue flame burner, no soot to clog up heat exchanger, then that is a bargain.

Can't see any reason not to use one. Unfortunately don't think there is one small enough to fit my space!

I did design a stainless steel heat exchanger to bolt on to a normal boiler flue and pre heat the returning CH water, but never got round to making it.

Colin Stone
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[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Hi Paul,

Many thanks. Luckily, new Fioul is mixed with a pretty good quantity of red diesel, so viscosity is probably 33.

And by complete chance Pete Jeffs did check burner on a cool autumn day. I was suprised that nothing needed doing as I know the old flue was 1m horizontal and my flue is 3.5m vertical with a silencer.

I guess I should be buying GNR in France for generator and boiler.

I am almost surprised that modern domestic boilers aren't kitted out like car engines with a mass air flow sensor and catalytic converter. A cat getting rid of CO might also save a few lives.

Perhaps the next gen will be.

Regards,

Colin Stone
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[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Colin

No need to use GNR - Fioul is - Fioul Superior better, but as a matter of course I add a general diesel improvement additive made by Morris Oils at a ratio of 1 to 400.

No need for a cat to get rid of CO, a correctly set boiler does not produce CO, bur should produce CO2. .Yet another reason for the use of a FGA.

As an aside I have seen some awful flues fitted to Kubola's . Its the control of Kubola boilers that I don't like, having said that I am not a fan of Elco boilers, but those are my own feelings, other love them.

Each to their own, it's what makes life good.

Best Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Tim

I suggest that you ring Mistral and talk to them.

Why not condensing, simple, to get the best out of them they need to run at pretty much full load for long periods at a time.

As I said at the beginning I don't want to get deeply into details, but below is the outline.

We run the boiler twice a day for about three hours, thermostat and timer controlled, the boiler having nearly twice the output to required load it cycles about 50% of the time. It's doubtful on that degree of load that I would even reach the point that a condenser would get to condensing conditions.

For the main part of our heating we use a wood burner.

Floor / Sole, I insulated under the sole with the equivalent of 70mm polystyrene, then laid 19mm WBP plywood, with taped seams, that was over covered covered with 19mm tongue and groove Purple Heart flooring. This makes for a "warm" floor.

We have found that a lot of cold feet on boats are caused by drafts, especially cold air "waterfalling" down companionways, we have a "half door" at the bottom of the wheelhouse companionway, which stops the "waterfall" of cold air, but allows warm air rise into the wheelhouse.

Having said all of the above, I should say that Lazy Heron is mid wheelhouse with a large bedroom rear cabin. The heating system is time controlled, with two thermostat controlled zones (bedroom and "forward"). "Forward" is heated by wood burner, which is left "in" all night, this zone rarely being activated by thermostat.

Oil fired Combi boilers, I personally do not like them, gas are fine, so did not consider one.

Till the next episode. Let me know what you decide on.

Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the reply, and I have got the jest of your argument, and will include a Mistral Boiler-house in the list of proposed equipment.
I agree with your sole/floor method, and cold feet can be prevented with correct preparation, your idea of a half door is a good idea, which
I had not though of, although I had been thinking of being able to close the hatchway inside the wheelhouse at the top of the companionway . I too had planed to have similar layers of wood, but with batons and spray foam between them. The way I read your method, it appears the 2 wood layers are on top of each other, with the Polystyrene under the lower ply layer. If this so, how did you secure the polystyrene to the lower ply layer. I would be concerned with Poly getting moisture from the bilges.

I have ruled out a combi, as like Colin I aim to get sufficient DHW produced via my Main Engine Cooling heat exchanger and Calorifier connections. and also from the Genny.

I have been toying with the Idea of a wood-burner, but am not sure if it is needed, with a good oil burner correctly sized, If I did go for it , I would go for the back-boiler version, as I have used one at home for the last 25 years with a Rayburn living-room open fire, which works well and gives the back-boiler 7.5 Kw , but a little Belt and Braces.

Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Tim

"Polystyrene equivalent" - Aluminiumised "bubble wrap" (it was before the advent of the new composite multi layer- from memory about 1.4m wide, laid above the ballast, taped "up" to the battens with ply on top, taped seams.

Wood burner - personal choice - we like them - we only put in a room heater, which is more than man enough (have to use fire bricks to make the fire smaller unless the weather is really cold (below -5) (here it gets down to -15 regularly, lowest we have recorded -18). Wood burner keeps us toasty warn, provides loads of ventilation which stops condensation (single glazed windows - always at least on of which is ajar).

Wood is cheap here 40E a cubic metre, we have somewhere to store it, and use about 4 - 5 cm per winter. Smaller boats (well insulated) burn over 1000 E per year in oil.

Back burner, yes my mistake was that I did not install one, but there are safety considerations in doing so, take advice.

Best Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Wikipedia has quite a good article on condensing boilers - a CB won't be any worse efficiency wise than a NCB and from time to time may be more efficient depending on system specs. Key to efficiency seems to be a cool enough CH return to extract max heat from flue gas. Other main issue is condensate and getting rid of it. I have no idea how many litres/day or week but a 25ltr container might suffice to catch. If the price differential CB/NCB is low, then possibly worth it.

Our floor is varnished 19mm pine T&G floorboards screwed directly into sole beams with thin insulating layer below. A few rugs scattered on top. Never had a problem with cold feet.
Thin floor makes cutting extra hatches easier - and I've cut 6 since the builders cut all I thought I would need and now have lots of useful storage for everything. Solar extractor fans remove air from bilges, so generally no moisture in bilges except a little condensation in depths of winter.

We use fwd cabin, so wheelhouse and aft cabin can be left cooler in winter. A heavy curtain on wheel house stairs stops cold air tumbling down and hot air rushing up.

I use TRVs on all radiators. We have a multifuel, cos the flames look nice and for redundancy, and carry up to 3/4 ton coal and logs below floor adjacent.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Adrian]

On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 01:11:45 +0200, "DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy
Golden" wrote:

IMHO ...

Under-floor heating is a bad idea for a barge. Not only is it slow to
respond, it also makes access to the bilge more difficult and can be
hard to repair. Good floor insulation makes sense, but the access
issue also applies to overly-complex floor insulation -- keep it
simple, and with lots of accesses.

Gas as a fuel source is another bad idea. My first on-board heating
was gas-fired. In winter, is used a 19 kg bottle a week. Both the
expense and lugging replacement bottles on board in winter were pains.
I replaced it.

Finally, a wood burner is also a bad idea. It requires a lot of work
(finding, cutting, splitting, transporting, storing, carrying inside,
and firing the wood; removing the ashes, it's dirty (the interior of
the accommodation *always* gets sooty and smells slightly of smoke),
and if it is "providing good ventilation" that means for combustion
you are wastefully using inside air which you have expensively heated
(accommodation ventilation should be addressed separately). And where
will you keep the wood supply? Space is the most valuable thing on
board.

My choice is a modern (condensing) kero-burner, drawing combustion air
from outside. And thick carpeting, cut into sections that are easy to
roll up separately.

Adrian

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden
I agree with your sole/floor method, and cold feet can be prevented with correct preparation, your idea of a half door is a good idea, which
I had not though of, although I had been thinking of being able to close the hatchway inside the wheelhouse at the top of the companionway . I too had planed to have similar layers of wood, but with batons and spray foam between them. The way I read your method, it appears the 2 wood layers are on top of each other, with the Polystyrene under the lower ply layer. If this so, how did you secure the polystyrene to the lower ply layer. I would be concerned with Poly getting moisture from the bilges.
I have ruled out a combi, as like Colin I aim to get sufficient DHW produced via my Main Engine Cooling heat exchanger and Calorifier connections. and also from the Genny.
I have been toying with the Idea of a wood-burner, but am not sure if it is needed, with a good oil burner correctly sized, If I did go for it , I would go for the back-boiler version, as I have used one at home for the last 25 years with a Rayburn living-room open fire, which works well and gives the back-boiler 7.5 Kw , but a little Belt and Braces.

Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

removing the ashes, it's dirty (the interior of the accommodation *always* gets sooty and smells slightly of smoke),

May be correct with old stoves, but not experienced with a modern Charnwood Cove stove. No more dust on surfaces in winter than in summer. Get an ash tippy - see eBay - and have 2 ash pans - one in tippy and one in stove. As for the extra work - well I've got to do something apart from 3-4 months skiing!

As I've mentioned, below floor storage for a 300kg+ coal in 25kg bags and logs in 6 builder's sand bags - logs found in summer.

Charnwood make flue boilers rather than back boilers. Have CH connections for one, but not yet got one.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - David Beaumont]

Kero is cheaper than heating oil but don't forget the calorific value of heating oil is 5%-7% more than kero. You will use more kero for the same heat output.

David

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi David,

Yes, the calorific value of kero, might be 5 to 7% less than Heating Oil ( for this I assume you mean Red Diesel, in our case ) but on the spot prices, I got at the start of this thread Kero was 25.75% cheaper than Red Diesel, so if you account for say 7% more need to me it seems still 18.75% cheaper which is not a small difference. and worth considering when deciding on either a new fit like myself, or a replacement at the end of a useful live of an existing system.

Hi Colin,

Again Thanks for your comments which I am finding helpful, I too am mind full of being able to have access to the "subterranean " elements of the Barge and will be trying to achieve as much storage as possible. Due to using a Hydraulic Drive Pod then the possibility of water gaining entry other than condensation is limited, so below sole, is an area not to be forgotten, and your idea of a solar extractor van is a good idea, of multiple ones guess, in a similar way to the need for multiple bilge pumps.

This could solve the negative thought I had concerning storage of fuel for the solid fuel burner, as one of my concerns had been storage of fuel ( coal or wood chips nor problem ) but logs which need to be stored to dry out. I currently use home grown logs at home, and normally have 10-15 cum, cut and split at any one time & drying out , with a usage of 5 Cum per year. I think on balance I will plan to include a stove in my list and at present and looking at the the Stratford EB 12i HE , which produces 12 Kw of water heating split between domestic and central heating + plus between 1.5 to 5 Kw of ambient room heat. based on solid fuel or 9Kw when burning wood.

For Paul,

You should check if your model of stove can be retro fitted with a back boiler as some can be, I cannot think what any safety issue might be other than insuring the recommended space around and behind the Stove/Boiler and correct material which is heat resistant next to it , but of course this could also apply to a sand alone stove. Can you enlighten me of any other potential safety issues of a back-boiler .

Regards All Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Tim,

Also, I found the old Barlo heat loss calculator very useful:

www.heatweb.com/programs/heatloss.html

Myson also have one, but you have to call for a CD.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Richard Bennett]

Which Country are you talking about at this price?

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Timothy Golden]

Hi Richard,
Your comment - "Which Country are you talking about at this price?" I am not sure which price your are referring to as several people have given prices for various thinks like Frank " Red diesel cost 0.74 Euros at present. 0.95 Is extortion.... "

How ever if you are referring to my quoted 3 prices spot for Kero- Premium Kero - Red Diesel that I am talking about on Lough Erne in NI
the quotes will be given for any part of UK by inserting the delivery Postal Code and you will get a quote against a quantity from an online site called Boiler Juice as per the link

http://www.boilerjuice.com/index3.php

Regards Tim

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Tim

Basically there should be enough thermal circulation capacity to ensure heat transfer in case of pump failure or power failure. Also the system should have an open feed and expansion tank with automatic make up, just like in a house.

All this is to ensure that steam will not be "made" if circulation is disrupted. Steam under pressure is potentially dangerous, with no relief mechanism is dangerous.

There are a whole host of regulations that cover the installation if in a house, unfortunately these are often flaunted in boat installations. There is a name for the owners of such systems, it is lucky.

Hope this helps

Paul