Barge Registration options and best practices

[DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy]

I have owned my Dutch sailing barge for 14 years. I am a retired American, and enjoy spending my summers working on my barge and preparing to cruise in the canals and waterways of Europe. I have a simple problem, but apparently the solution is much more complicated than it needs to be. I understand that to leave the UK and enter another countries waterways, I will need to show a Registration Certificate. Seems simple enough. My barge has been registered by two previous owners with the UK Small Ships Register (part III). But when I applied recently to have the registration details changed to reflect my ownership, my application was rejected. Why, you may ask? Because I am an American and the Small Ships Register is only for UK citizens.

I already faced this problem when trying to pass RYA courses, such as "Day Skipper" and other certifications, such as CEVNI and ICC. I was allowed to take the courses, but was denied receiving the Certificate until 2012, when the RYA added a tick box to allow Americans to be issued a certificate.

I believe a proper piece of paper showing an authorized Registration of a Barge does not serve as proof of ownership. So why does the nationality of the owner make any difference at all in the registration procedure.

IDEA: The DBA maintains a register of barges.....so would it not be possible for the DBA to print a certificate of Registry and perhaps charge a small fee (£25.00) to show to the officials upon entering foreign waters?

OTHER POSSIBILITIES: Should I register my barge in Holland (or elsewhere?) to minimize the bureaucratic tangle that prevents an American with a Dutch barge residing mainly in the UK, but wanting to cruise abroad in EU countries?

Please suggest any possible options that you know will be helpful....thank you

Will Macoy
Dutch Barge "CATHARINA" 17 Metres X 3.6 Metres
[phone] cell phone

[DBA Forum (B) - Pete Milne (Admin)]

In general, each country runs services like the ship registries for people actually in the country, which makes sense. I think the SSR only requires a UK address, not citizenship - well that's what the guidance notes say: I naturally haven't tried it. The Dutch registry (Kadaster) likewise expects a Dutch address, and is more complicated, as it IS a proof of ownership, unlike the SSR. In either case it could be simply the address of a friend or boatyard.

For a 17m boat currently in the UK, the SSR is the simplest process. Has the system actually blocked you because of citizenship or does it just look as though it might?

Registration can only be done by government approved authorities, which rules out a DBA registry.

Pete

[DBA Forum (B) - David Priest]

When we purchased our first barge "Corita B" in 1996 it was registered
on the SSR in the name of a British company. I do not think that there
was any requirement that the owners of he company needed to be British.

David Priest.
"Corita"

Post by DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy
I have owned my Dutch sailing barge for 14 years. I am a retired American, and enjoy spending my summers working on my barge and preparing to cruise in the canals and waterways of Europe. I have a simple problem, but apparently the solution is much more complicated than it needs to be. I understand that to leave the UK and enter another countries waterways, I will need to show a Registration Certificate. Seems simple enough. My barge has been registered by two previous owners with the UK Small Ships Register (part III). But when I applied recently to have the registration details changed to reflect my ownership, my application was rejected. Why, you may ask? Because I am an American and the Small Ships Register is only for UK citizens.

[DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy]

David,
Thank you for your reply. A telephone call from me to the SSR was answered by a NO, we cannot accept registrations except for UK citizens. Then my UK citizen friend and owner of a boatyard, offered to register my barge with his name on the SSR. He revealed that the owner was American, and immediately received a verbal "No, the owner must be a UK Citizen." Perhaps it just depends on the day you call, and who you talk to. I offered proof of the previous two owners having registered the barge with the SSR, but that apparently didn't matter.





Can you offer any other advise?

Cheers,

Will Macoy






-----Original Message-----

Forum (B) - David Priest <dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

subscribers <forumsubscribers-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:21

Registration options and best practices










When we purchased our first barge "Corita B" in 1996 it was registered
on the SSR in the name of a British company. I do not think that there
was any requirement that the owners of he company needed to be British.

David Priest.
"Corita"

Post by DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy
I have owned my Dutch sailing barge for 14 years. I am a retired American,

and enjoy spending my summers working on my barge and preparing to cruise in the
canals and waterways of Europe. I have a simple problem, but apparently the
solution is much more complicated than it needs to be. I understand that to
leave the UK and enter another countries waterways, I will need to show a
Registration Certificate. Seems simple enough. My barge has been registered
by two previous owners with the UK Small Ships Register (part III). But when I
applied recently to have the registration details changed to reflect my
ownership, my application was rejected. Why, you may ask? Because I am an
American and the Small Ships Register is only for UK citizens.

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

SSR is only open to members of the Commonwealth. You do not have to be a British citizen to register a barge on the SSR. If you are Malaysian the registry is open to you. If you are American, it is not.

As an American, you can register your boat through the USCG as we have. For us, with a new build, USCG was fast, easy, and inexpensive. The difficulty for older barges is proving the complete chain of ownership. Some have reported that they can first register the barge in their state of residence and then roll that registration over through the USCG to bypass the chain of ownership issue. (The details of this lurk somewhere on this site....)

Another option is to form a UK corporation and then register the boat on Part 1 (or is it Part 3, I get these confused). There is considerable expense to do this. If you are interested I will forward the contact information for a lawyer who handles this sort of thing.

Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy]

Here is the wording from the SSR website




NOTE: The "BOAT has a NATIONALTY. Then it should not matter what nationality the owner is.

Registering craft on Part III of the Small Ships Register (SSR)
Part III is a simple and cheap form of registration that proves a boat’s nationality. If your pleasure craft is under 24 metres you can register with Part III of the UK Ship Register. Registration costs £25.
Eligibility to register
In order to be eligible, all owners must be resident in the UK for 185 days of the year and be one of the following:
British Citizennon-UK citizens exercising their EU right of freedom of movement or worker’s right for establishmentBritish Dependent Territories CitizenBritish Overseas CitizenBritish subject under the British Nationality Act 1981British National (overseas) under Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986Commonwealth Citizen not falling within this listAs an American, I have lived in the UK each year for the past 14 years, usually 5 or 6 months at a time, so sometimes not over 185 days in a given year. I did have a work permit for 3 years in beginning in 1999, now retired, and I still have a permanent address in the UK, but apparently do not meet any of the criteria. If the SSR registration conveyed proof of ownership, I could understand the insistence on UK citizenship, but that not be
ing the case, I am baffled and would like to find a simple way to enter France or Belgium with an acceptable document. Does anybody have any connections to the SSR management? The RYA now
certifies American citizens that pass RYA exams in the UK....so maybe the SSR will see that this could also be changed in the registration rules.





Please let me have any of your suggestions of who to contact in the SSR to make this happen.





Cheers,

Will Macoy




-----Original Message-----

Forum (B) - Pete Milne (Admin) <dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

subscribers <forumsubscribers-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:54

Registration options and best practices










In general, each country runs services like the ship registries for people
actually in the country, which makes sense. I think the SSR only requires a UK
address, not citizenship - well that's what the guidance notes say: I naturally
haven't tried it. The Dutch registry (Kadaster) likewise expects a Dutch
address, and is more complicated, as it IS a proof of ownership, unlike the SSR.
In either case it could be simply the address of a friend or boatyard.

For a 17m boat currently in the UK, the SSR is the simplest process. Has the
system actually blocked you because of citizenship or does it just look as
though it might?

Registration can only be done by government approved authorities, which rules
out a DBA registry.

Pete

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

The SSR is also open to EU citizens who are "ordinarily resident'' in the UK: [url=https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/ssr/ssr/notes.asp ][/url]

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

[url=https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/ssr/ssr/notes.asp ][/url]

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/ssr/ssr/notes.asp

The link, which didn't come through last time....

[DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy]

Hello Dave,




Do you think it is practical to register a 102 year old Dutch barge with the USCG in the state of Georgia, when it has resided in the UK for over 30 years? I have copies of the bills of sale from the previous two owners that also documents when it came out of Holland. I have contacted a lawyer in Holland who said there is still an entry on the Dutch Register for my barge that would seem to indicate it is still legally owned by the City of Harlingen, Holland.





Is there really much attention given to the Registration of a boat when it enters another country in Europe?

I would like to have all my documentation in order, and not to open a can of worms.





Cheers,

Will






-----Original Message-----

Forum (B) - David Oare <dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

subscribers <forumsubscribers-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:54

Registration options and best practices










SSR is only open to members of the Commonwealth. You do not have to be a
British citizen to register a barge on the SSR. If you are Malaysian the
registry is open to you. If you are American, it is not.

As an American, you can register your boat through the USCG as we have. For us,
with a new build, USCG was fast, easy, and inexpensive. The difficulty for
older barges is proving the complete chain of ownership. Some have reported
that they can first register the barge in their state of residence and then roll
that registration over through the USCG to bypass the chain of ownership issue.
(The details of this lurk somewhere on this site....)

Another option is to form a UK corporation and then register the boat on Part 1
(or is it Part 3, I get these confused). There is considerable expense to do
this. If you are interested I will forward the contact information for a lawyer
who handles this sort of thing.

Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

Obviously I haven't done this but here's exactly what I've been told by someone who did it:

"Now if you do register in the US, save yourself a lot of effort and don’t try to do it through the coast guard - they want an unbroken paper trail from when it was first built, with each transaction notarized by a US Notary. Take your receipt to your State DMV where they are happy to take a fee and issue you a registration (at least in California). You can then send this in to the Coast Guard who will issue you a nice certificate and put you on the register and renew your registration annually for free."

If you like I will PM you the authors email address.

Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy]

Sounds absurd, but it gets the job done....yes please send the email address.






-----Original Message-----

Forum (B) - David Oare <dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

subscribers <forumsubscribers-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:16

Registration options and best practices










Obviously I haven't done this but here's exactly what I've been told by someone
who did it:

"Now if you do register in the US, save yourself a lot of effort and don’t try
to do it through the coast guard - they want an unbroken paper trail from when
it was first built, with each transaction notarized by a US Notary. Take your
receipt to your State DMV where they are happy to take a fee and issue you a
registration (at least in California). You can then send this in to the Coast
Guard who will issue you a nice certificate and put you on the register and
renew your registration annually for free."

If you like I will PM you the authors email address.

Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

As a former English colony, claim "grandfather" rights for the SSR ;-)

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS

[DBA Forum (B) - Sharon Hammond]

Dear Will,

We are also Americans with a Dutch barge, though outs is a replica, built in the Uk about 17 years ago. It was owned by a British resident who had it registered in the SSR. He sold it to an American couple about 5 years ago, who had it registered with the Us Coast Guard. The documentation is not onerous. There was a form they had to fill out that included sizes and estimated tonnage - it is pretty straightforward - age, who built it, when. The Americans had to provide a bill of sale from the UK owner. As far as we know, there wasn’t anything else required.

In 2013 the Americans sold it to us, who are also Americans, and the transfer of ownership was very easy. It required a notarized transfer of ownership on a form provided by the USCG and we had to file our ownership documents with them. We have to renew the registration yearly for a small fee and the original fee was also small - not more than a couple hundred dollars. Our insurer is completely happy with the registration and so far ( 5+ months along_ no one in France has even asked to look at it, except one lock keeper on the canal from the Soane to Dole, who wanted to see it and verify that the number on the boat matched the number on the form - which it does.

Three is not VAT in the US, so that isn’t an issue I really don’t have any idea what would happen if and when we would sell the boat back to an EU citizen re the VAT but we’ll cross that bridge when and if we come to it.

The one slightly weird thing for Eu barging is that the US doesn’t take the radio license thing nearly as seriously. We registered the boat radio with the FCC and got a US license for the boat - there isn’t actually a separate license for the pilot in the US. We don’t know if that will ever be a problem over here. We are under 20 meters so that makes some of the scrutiny lighter.

Hope that is helpful. I think the USCG registry makes a great deal of sense for US citizens.


stan and sharon hammond
Encore

Post by DBA Forum (B) - William Macoy
Hello Dave,
Do you think it is practical to register a 102 year old Dutch barge with the USCG in the state of Georgia, when it has resided in the UK for over 30 years? I have copies of the bills of sale from the previous two owners that also documents when it came out of Holland. I have contacted a lawyer in Holland who said there is still an entry on the Dutch Register for my barge that would seem to indicate it is still legally owned by the City of Harlingen, Holland.
Is there really much attention given to the Registration of a boat when it enters another country in Europe?
I would like to have all my documentation in order, and not to open a can of worms.
Cheers,
Will
-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - David Oare
subscribers
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:54
Registration options and best practices
SSR is only open to members of the Commonwealth. You do not have to be a
British citizen to register a barge on the SSR. If you are Malaysian the
registry is open to you. If you are American, it is not.
As an American, you can register your boat through the USCG as we have. For us,
with a new build, USCG was fast, easy, and inexpensive. The difficulty for
older barges is proving the complete chain of ownership. Some have reported
that they can first register the barge in their state of residence and then roll
that registration over through the USCG to bypass the chain of ownership issue.
(The details of this lurk somewhere on this site....)
Another option is to form a UK corporation and then register the boat on Part 1
(or is it Part 3, I get these confused). There is considerable expense to do
this. If you are interested I will forward the contact information for a lawyer
who handles this sort of thing.
Dave

[DBA Forum (B) - Pete Milne (Admin)]

[quote="Sharon Hammond" post=57053]
I think the USCG registry makes a great deal of sense for US citizens.
[/quote]
So it seems. And of course it allows you to (legally) fly the stars and stripes wherever you go, which the SSR wouldn't. As Will observed, the boat has a nationality, regardless of its skipper.

I will collate the excellent US registry advice in this thread and add it to the Knowledgebase for future reference - and the previously unnoticed catch about SSR being more limited than their website suggests.

Pete

[DBA Forum (B) - David Oare]

On the VHF user's license--the FCC will issue a VHF license to Americans for use in places like the inland waterways of Europe. It is a simple process. You send them forty dollars, agree that you will use the radio properly, and they send you license. I believe that in other threads it was mentioned that some countries don't accept the FCC issued VHF licenses.

[DBA Forum (B) - Peter Cawson]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
As a former English colony, claim "grandfather" rights for the SSR ;-)

What! The next thing we'll be having Scots asking for SSR registration after they go independent! ;-)

Peter

[DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne]

[quote="David Oare" post=57055]
On the VHF user's license--the FCC will issue a VHF license to Americans for use in places like the inland waterways of Europe. It is a simple process. You send them forty dollars, agree that you will use the radio properly, and they send you license. I believe that in other threads it was mentioned that some countries don't accept the FCC issued VHF licenses
[/quote]
In general, for a radio operator's certificate to be valid in another country there needs to be an agreement between the countries. Most European countries have signed up to an agreement (RAINWAT*) which aims at 'harmonising' radio operators qualifications on the inland waterways - quite important for the 'joined-up' countries! Notably, the USA, NZ and AU are not a party to RAINWAT so the FCC licence is not, as far as I know, [i]officially [/i]recognised in Europe. It is certainly not accepted by the Dutch Agent Telecom when applying for a ships radio licence. Whether the average water police are aware of its status is another matter: they may be happy to see a good-looking piece of paper. However, the German police have been known to reject a UK VHF operators certificate(!), so may b
e more critical of an FCC licence than the French/Belgians/Dutch.

Pete

* http://www.barges.org/library?task=document.download&id=491

[DBA Forum (B) - Harvey Schwartz]

As US citizens we formed a UK corporation to own our old barge and continued its previous UK registration under Part 1. It was a fairly simple process. It requires an annual online renewal process that takes all of a minute each year. Nonetheless, we fly a US flag. I can't imagine any French authority citing us for not flying a UK flag. To cut down on confusion, we officially changed our home port from London to Boston since we come from the US version of Boston. No need to get into details about which Boston is on our stern. US Coast Guard documentation of such an old vessel would be a nighmare.