Discussion:
grey water systems
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 12:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

an old chestnut but I was thinking of installing a grey water system in my
new-build. I was thinking...

* Pump water from shower, hand basins and washing machine but NOT the
kitchen sink into a grey water tank.

* Supply the water for flushing the heads only.

I see Whale do a range of filterless pumps that would do the job, plus I
need an additional pump to supply water to the toilets.

I'm unsure how marine toilets work, to be honest. They seem not to have
cisterns and to make do with little water.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to configure this part of the water
system? An overflow from the grey water to the (larger) black water tank
seems a necessity. Plus an override to supply the toilets with fresh water
should the grey water run low.

Kind regards,

James
DBA Forum (B) - Chris Grant
2014-09-14 15:21:01 UTC
Permalink
James

We put in 2x750 litre black tanks side by side but connected at the
lowest point underside with a large bore loop. The reason was to
anticipate possible grey laws and then repipe to use half for grey.
There is no indication that this will ever happen in our lifetime.

I were to start afresh, I would plumb all basins, showers etc in grey
solvent ABS/PVC 40mm to main 80mm gravity drained back to a central
float switched macerator where the pumped outlet goes to a three way
valve, overboard or into one of the black/grey tanks.

Don't try to use grey water for loo flushing, it has far more horrible
bacteria that canal water and stinks after a day or two. Use fresh or
optional canal filtered water . If using anything other than fresh for
flushing, ensure good filtration at WC solenoid. A leaking solenoid with
gunge under the seating can sink your ship if you have an auto
pressurised canal water system. It nearly happened to us only it was
fresh water from our 3 ton tanks and it was spotted while on board due
to unusually long running of water pump, also ship wouldn't have sunk as
water already on board in tanks but bilges were flooded with several
hundred litres from overflowing WC.

Again, a fresh start, I would avoid marine WC at eye watering prices
(from UK anyway) and use eco standard back to the wall loos with behind
the wall cisterns piped in solvent 80mm ABS/PVC to central macerator as
per grey with three way valve through bottom of ship or to black tank.
As any bargee will tell you. pumpouts are rare to find and flushing
through the bottom of the ship per use is probably preferable to
emptying 1.5tons in one go into the canal. If you must use marine style
WC then go for the sani compact 230V version available from builders
merchants and on-line. In France these are 290 Euros in Mr Brico, in UK
currently offer for £462 at
http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/bathroom-furniture-shower-taps/18209.htm

Finally, whatever Vetus or any supplier say and however expensive it is,
38mm 'Sanitation hose' is useless and leaches after a year or two
resulting in odour. The small print says to not allow low loops where
sewage can collect, where would that be possible on a barge. We have
almost 30m of very fancy 38mm sanitation hose from two WCs to the black
tanks and after six years it all needs to be changed. Most of it is in
the engine room but the odour is not pleasant and my winter job is to
replace all with thick walled solid swept bend 40mm solvent welded
plastic with George Fischer type valves.

Good luck with the build. Chris Grant www.mvesme.co.uk
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
Hi,
an old chestnut but I was thinking of installing a grey water system in my
new-build. I was thinking...
* Pump water from shower, hand basins and washing machine but NOT the
kitchen sink into a grey water tank.
* Supply the water for flushing the heads only.
I see Whale do a range of filterless pumps that would do the job, plus I
need an additional pump to supply water to the toilets.
I'm unsure how marine toilets work, to be honest. They seem not to have
cisterns and to make do with little water.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to configure this part of the water
system? An overflow from the grey water to the (larger) black water tank
seems a necessity. Plus an override to supply the toilets with fresh water
should the grey water run low.
Kind regards,
James
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-14 15:51:02 UTC
Permalink
James,

I would not bother with using grey water for heads. Have large fresh water tanks and spend money on canal/river water filtration system if needed.
In 6 years I have paid once for water - €3 for 5m3 in Belgium.

Our grey water drains into fwd and aft tanks emptied by air pressure switch/Whale gulper to 2 way valve - overboard/grey water tank. Tanks made from large plastic storage boxes approx 50 ltrs.
Bath has its own pump, again with air pressure switch, as full bath would overwhelm tank in event of pump failure.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image83.html

I too have used solid PVC piping but also have lengths of sanitation hose in BW system. In 10 years no problem or smell yet. Flexible Hose Supplies, Staines had a job lot of 38mm leeflex for £1/m.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 15:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Chris, hi,

all very interesting. I'll digest this and get back at some point. Grey
water for the toilets appears to be a no-no.

One question if you have a moment, what do you mean by an eco-toilet? Simply
one with a dual flush?

Kind regards,

James



-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Chris Grant [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 14 September 2014 16:21
subscribers
water systems


James

We put in 2x750 litre black tanks side by side but connected at the
lowest point underside with a large bore loop. The reason was to
anticipate possible grey laws and then repipe to use half for grey.
There is no indication that this will ever happen in our lifetime.

I were to start afresh, I would plumb all basins, showers etc in grey
solvent ABS/PVC 40mm to main 80mm gravity drained back to a central
float switched macerator where the pumped outlet goes to a three way
valve, overboard or into one of the black/grey tanks.

Don't try to use grey water for loo flushing, it has far more horrible
bacteria that canal water and stinks after a day or two. Use fresh or
optional canal filtered water . If using anything other than fresh for
flushing, ensure good filtration at WC solenoid. A leaking solenoid with
gunge under the seating can sink your ship if you have an auto
pressurised canal water system. It nearly happened to us only it was
fresh water from our 3 ton tanks and it was spotted while on board due
to unusually long running of water pump, also ship wouldn't have sunk as
water already on board in tanks but bilges were flooded with several
hundred litres from overflowing WC.

Again, a fresh start, I would avoid marine WC at eye watering prices
(from UK anyway) and use eco standard back to the wall loos with behind
the wall cisterns piped in solvent 80mm ABS/PVC to central macerator as
per grey with three way valve through bottom of ship or to black tank.
As any bargee will tell you. pumpouts are rare to find and flushing
through the bottom of the ship per use is probably preferable to
emptying 1.5tons in one go into the canal. If you must use marine style
WC then go for the sani compact 230V version available from builders
merchants and on-line. In France these are 290 Euros in Mr Brico, in UK
currently offer for £462 at
http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/bathroom-furniture-shower-taps/18209.htm

Finally, whatever Vetus or any supplier say and however expensive it is,
38mm 'Sanitation hose' is useless and leaches after a year or two
resulting in odour. The small print says to not allow low loops where
sewage can collect, where would that be possible on a barge. We have
almost 30m of very fancy 38mm sanitation hose from two WCs to the black
tanks and after six years it all needs to be changed. Most of it is in
the engine room but the odour is not pleasant and my winter job is to
replace all with thick walled solid swept bend 40mm solvent welded
plastic with George Fischer type valves.

Good luck with the build. Chris Grant www.mvesme.co.uk
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
Hi,
an old chestnut but I was thinking of installing a grey water system in my
new-build. I was thinking...
* Pump water from shower, hand basins and washing machine but NOT the
kitchen sink into a grey water tank.
* Supply the water for flushing the heads only.
I see Whale do a range of filterless pumps that would do the job, plus I
need an additional pump to supply water to the toilets.
I'm unsure how marine toilets work, to be honest. They seem not to have
cisterns and to make do with little water.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to configure this part of the water
system? An overflow from the grey water to the (larger) black water tank
seems a necessity. Plus an override to supply the toilets with fresh water
should the grey water run low.
Kind regards,
James
DBA Forum (B) - Chris Grant
2014-09-14 19:13:02 UTC
Permalink
James
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
One question if you have a moment, what do you mean by an eco-toilet? Simply
one with a dual flush?
Yes, a short and long flush cistern to minimise water use. We have a 24V Saniflow £500+ unit from Leesan which is supposedly low water consumption, fancy electronic panel with four option buttons but without going into detail, requires two or sometimes three flushes to clear properly. That means probably more water than a standard domestic WC. It is also the one where the solenoid failed after about a year and flooded the barge when connected to fresh clean water. When I dismantled the control box which hangs precariously off the macerator motor I found that it was mounted with the solenoid coil on it's side which is from experience wrong. This relies on the spring to close the spool. I always mount solenoids of this type (standard washing machine type) with coil at the top so that the we
ight of the spool pin helps to close the valve against the rubber seal when power is removed. I have since mounted the valve outside of the WC and it has been fine since.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 19:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,

thanks for this.

I think cisternless toilet flushed with fresh water are the way to go, then, with no grey water flush. I plan to fit a decent Jabsco variable speed pump without an accumulator tank so this can power the toilets as well as the sinks and shower.

Chris Grant's suggestion will do for the smaller, second head. I'll get something a bit (ahem) fancier for the main bathroom, meaning a cisternless toilet but with a separate macerator placed under the floor.

"Eco" toilets still confuse me and true ecological toilets, meaning dry ones, I wouldn't touch with the proverbial barge pole. If a cisternless toilet uses only 3.6 litres per flush, this is good enough for me.

I wonder why wash basins need to be emptied into a macerator? I might go for the main bathroom's wash basin, shower and the kitchen sink emptied with a Whale filterless pump. I'm thinking of fitting a waste disposal unit on the kitchen sink, in fact.

What do you mean by a tank emptied by an air pressure switch? I guess a switch operated by air pressure in the tank? To be honest I can’t really grasp what your setup is here. Why the need for a two way valve?

Flexible Hose Supplies, Staines don't seem to have a website and googling brings up nothing but I hope to find the right pipes when the time comes.

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 14 September 2014 16:51
subscribers
water systems


James,

I would not bother with using grey water for heads. Have large fresh water tanks and spend money on canal/river water filtration system if needed.
In 6 years I have paid once for water - €3 for 5m3 in Belgium.

Our grey water drains into fwd and aft tanks emptied by air pressure switch/Whale gulper to 2 way valve - overboard/grey water tank. Tanks made from large plastic storage boxes approx 50 ltrs.
Bath has its own pump, again with air pressure switch, as full bath would overwhelm tank in event of pump failure.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image83.html

I too have used solid PVC piping but also have lengths of sanitation hose in BW system. In 10 years no problem or smell yet. Flexible Hose Supplies, Staines had a job lot of 38mm leeflex for £1/m.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-09-14 20:03:29 UTC
Permalink
We have a Vetus 24V macerator toilet, which came with the boat - interestingly with the same control panel as Chris's Saniflow. It looks very similar but costs a LOT more from Vetus. We had to replace the macerator recently as it had become too heavily calked to clean and it was behaving like Chris's. The new unit does a one-push flush.

We use canal water, through a Flowjet pump, with pressure switch and pre-filter, which works perfectly and doesn't use valuable potable water so the ECO button is redundant. I wouldn't use smelly grey water.

Rather than fit a grey tank, use bio-degradable cleaners.

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Pete. Milne
2014-09-14 20:20:03 UTC
Permalink
[quote="James Smith" post=57702]
"Eco" toilets still confuse me and true ecological toilets, meaning dry ones, I wouldn't touch with the proverbial barge pole. If a cisternless toilet uses only 3.6 litres per flush, this is good enough for me.
[/quote]
Chris's (and my) 'ECO' button just mean less water. 1.2 litres instead of 2.2 litres for a full flush for my Vetus. 3.6 litres every time sounds a lot!
[quote]
I wonder why wash basins need to be emptied into a macerator?
[/quote]
Of course they don't 'need' to but there are macerators which act as a pump, designed for complete bathrooms in house basements (or below the waterline in a boat - and there are toilets with built-in macerators. We have a sump and pump for the shower and a self-contained macerator toilet because of the boat's layout. If all were in the same room, a macerator/pump unit might be more useful, though it would be pumping grey water with the 'black'.

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 21:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Chris, all good to know.

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Chris Grant [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 14 September 2014 20:13
subscribers
water systems


James
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
One question if you have a moment, what do you mean by an eco-toilet?
Simply
Post by DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
one with a dual flush?
Yes, a short and long flush cistern to minimise water use. We have a 24V
Saniflow £500+ unit from Leesan which is supposedly low water consumption,
fancy electronic panel with four option buttons but without going into
detail, requires two or sometimes three flushes to clear properly. That
means probably more water than a standard domestic WC. It is also the one
where the solenoid failed after about a year and flooded the barge when
connected to fresh clean water. When I dismantled the control box which
hangs precariously off the macerator motor I found that it was mounted with
the solenoid coil on it's side which is from experience wrong. This relies
on the spring to close the spool. I always mount solenoids of this type
(standard washing machine type) with coil at the top so that the weight of
the spool pin helps to close the valve against the rubber seal when power is
removed. I have since mounted the valve outside of the WC and it has been
fine since.
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 21:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Pete, hi,

yeah, 24V "Marine" toilets seem unduly expensive. Chris Grant's link seems
the best option. Here it is again for anyone coming here in future:

http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/bathroom-furniture-shower-taps/18209.htm

And yeah, grey water flushes are definitely off the cards now.

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Pete. Milne [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 14 September 2014 21:03
subscribers
water systems


We have a Vetus 24V macerator toilet, which came with the boat -
interestingly with the same control panel as Chris's Saniflow. It looks very
similar but costs a LOT more from Vetus. We had to replace the macerator
recently as it had become too heavily calked to clean and it was behaving
like Chris's. The new unit does a one-push flush.

We use canal water, through a Flowjet pump, with pressure switch and
pre-filter, which works perfectly and doesn't use valuable potable water so
the ECO button is redundant. I wouldn't use smelly grey water.

Rather than fit a grey tank, use bio-degradable cleaners.

Pete
DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
2014-09-14 21:17:02 UTC
Permalink
James,

The air pressure switch - Jabsco HydroAir I think - operates with a small "diving bell" sat in bottom of tank with an air tube to the switch. Water rises in tank and bell, increase in air pressure switches on pump to empty tank.

Two way valves allow you to divert discharge to internal holding tank or over side.
I have 3000 ltr black/grey/ballast tanks.

I have an Exalto 24v macerator head with variable flush cycles and a manual pumped Blakes Lavac.

Lavac is brilliant and probably the best marine head available with no moving parts and operates by vacuum. Can be used almost water less if required. Not cheap retail, got mine at a boat jumble for €10.

Colin Stone
KEI


Sent via BlackBerry® BIS
DBA Forum (B) - James Smith
2014-09-14 21:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Colin, hi,

great, thanks.

You mentioned ballast tanks?!

I've been mulling over the idea of ballast tanks this weekend but dismissed them as outlandish. Sizeable ballast tanks would help me over shoals and under bridges. Does anyone do this?

Kind regards,

James

-----Original Message-----
Forum (B) - Colin Stone [mailto:dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 14 September 2014 22:17
subscribers
water systems


James,

The air pressure switch - Jabsco HydroAir I think - operates with a small "diving bell" sat in bottom of tank with an air tube to the switch. Water rises in tank and bell, increase in air pressure switches on pump to empty tank.

Two way valves allow you to divert discharge to internal holding tank or over side.
I have 3000 ltr black/grey/ballast tanks.

I have an Exalto 24v macerator head with variable flush cycles and a manual pumped Blakes Lavac.

Lavac is brilliant and probably the best marine head available with no moving parts and operates by vacuum. Can be used almost water less if required. Not cheap retail, got mine at a boat jumble for €10.

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® BIS

Loading...