refit cost

[DBA Forum (B) - steve rothwell]

I appreciate this is akin to asking “how long is a piece of string?” but would appreciate a steer on the cost range of a refit…..we have looked on and off for a while at an early 1900s motortjalk 20m x 4.5. It was refitted in late 80s and whilst the lay-out is fine it would need most of the interior pulling out and replacing. I fear as worst case the same would apply to electrics and mechanics. Can anyone give ball park numbers for the work in France - just as a guide for us to decide if it’s worth spending money on getting it surveyed?
Much appreciated
Steve

[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Hayes]

Hi Steve

Some people near us have a 20 m tjalk, it too needed a total refit here in France.

A nice job was done, modern and professional woodwork, however, quite simple, two nice cabins, a good galley, free standing furniture (not in fit out costs), a nice shower room (1 only). a deck terrace with retracting sun shade, no TV, no Air conditioning, a wood burner and an oil fired central heating system. A Mastervolt battery management system, and Gel batteries (what for I do not know - but that is my opinion).

Their bank account is Euro 120 000 lighter for the inside work (No work done on the engine and generator in this price).

The external paint job was separate at around E 55 000.

That is not counting the over plating costs, and engine service / repair and installation of a bow thruster (about 12 000) when they brought it.

Hope this helps

Paul Hayes

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Steve,

Based on my own experience of fitting out 22m x 4.85m, I would think that min €100000 for labour only for a simple fit out. Assuming 2000 hours at €50 per hour. And quite a few hours to rip out old and restore. Materials on top.

My own calcs show that we spent around 5500 hours on KEI, but that includes a significant amount of time designing, researching and www hunting and I also started with a clean new hull.

Which is why a custom new build 20m will be pushing £300000 plus.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Edward & Pam Burrell]

Talking to a Dutchman last night he said that the prices are really
crashing for old ships. He said you can pick up a previously 100,000
vessel for around 50,000. Do not forget the fundamental truth - twice
as much and twice as long. This is especially true if you are trying to
work with a limited budget. There be dragons behind the woodwork on aged
fit-outs. The other hazard is that you will keep changing your mind
about what you want. This is major cost escalator when working with a yard.

Edward.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
Steve,
Based on my own experience of fitting out 22m x 4.85m, I would think that min €100000 for labour only for a simple fit out. Assuming 2000 hours at €50 per hour. And quite a few hours to rip out old and restore. Materials on top.
My own calcs show that we spent around 5500 hours on KEI, but that includes a significant amount of time designing, researching and www hunting and I also started with a clean new hull.
Which is why a custom new build 20m will be pushing £300000 plus.
Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS

[DBA Forum (B) - Daniel Boekel]

or buy a new 25m for only 89k!!

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m819075606

(if I only knew when starting my 'old hull project'...)



On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:43 PM, DBA Forum (B) - Edward & Pam Burrell <dbabarges-pvYRptiajiAdnm+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



Talking to a Dutchman last night he said that the prices are really

crashing for old ships.   He said you can pick up a previously 100,000

vessel for around 50,000.   Do not forget the fundamental truth - twice

as much and twice as long.  This is especially true if you are trying to

work with a limited budget. There be dragons behind the woodwork on aged

fit-outs.  The other hazard is that you will keep changing your mind

about what you want.  This is major cost escalator when working with a yard.



Edward.

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone
Steve,
Based on my own experience of fitting out 22m x 4.85m, I would think that min €100000 for labour only for a simple fit out. Assuming 2000 hours at €50 per hour. And quite a few hours to rip out old and restore.  Materials on top.
My own calcs show that we spent around 5500 hours on KEI, but that includes a significant amount of time designing, researching and www hunting and I also started with a clean new hull.
Which is why a custom new build 20m will be pushing £300000 plus.
Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® BIS

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Daniel Boekel
or buy a new 25m for only 89k!!

And it is still another 200k + in whatever currency to complete.

There are 2 ways - spend it all up front or dribble the same amount over the years!!

Colin Stone
KEI

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[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Daniel Boekel
or buy a new 25m for only 89k!!

That seems a very low price. Wonder where it was built?

Just been looking through my old notebook for a name.

Back in Jul 2003 Enkhuikzen Maritime were selling 18m casco for €68k inc BTW.
And 20m Ex Poland cascos were €89k.

There were also some 25m x 4.85 Russian cascos and a complete copy - so light scantlings. Came with 40 tons of ballast and would still need some more and welding was a bit dubious - lots of non continuous. £69800 in Jul 2003.

Colin Stone
KEI
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[DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[DBA Forum (B) - Daniel Boekel]

I remember seing this new build for sale while being built, and for more (125k) after being finished, looked like a dutch yard, possibly Multiship Harlingen? (not 100% shure)

Post by DBA Forum (B) - Daniel Boekel
or buy a new 25m for only 89k!!

That seems a very low price.  Wonder where it was built?



Just been looking through my old notebook for a name.



Back in Jul 2003 Enkhuikzen Maritime were selling 18m casco for €68k inc BTW.

And 20m Ex Poland cascos were €89k.



There were also some 25m x 4.85 Russian cascos and a complete copy - so light scantlings. Came with 40 tons of ballast and would still need some more and welding was a bit dubious - lots of non continuous.  £69800 in Jul 2003.




Colin Stone

KEI

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[DBA Forum (B) - Paul Thomson]

From my very recent old barge palavers, I'd strongly recommend that you try to get a boat which needs as little hull work as possible.

Is there a recent hull survey? My barge purchase last year was cheap enough to justify the cost of the welding/overplating but it takes a looooooong time.

Can you stage any of the work? i.e. will the engine be 'good enough' for a couple of years so that you can delay some cost?

I think everyone will agree that it is best to estimate what you think the project will cost and then double it.

Saying that, it WILL be worth it in the end!

All the best,

Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Mclaren]

Like all things, this depends on how you go about it. I am now on my eighth barge, god help me. If u project manage it and work with the craftsmen you employ, do the research and planning and purchasing, and if u have a modicum of skill with yr hands you can create yr dream barge, new build, convert from trade, or rebuild an already converted barge for under 250k£. Everything included. I have done all three.. The other option is to hand it to a yard. This I haven't done but have friends who have. I have an idea what their costs were, but have no personal experience. The difference is £120 a day or £50 an hour per worker. Whatever you decide it's creating a work of art and the process is addictive. Viod is positively the last barge I will do, that is of course until the next one!! C

Sent from my iPad

From my very recent old barge palavers, I'd strongly recommend that you try to get a boat which needs as little hull work as possible.
Is there a recent hull survey? My barge purchase last year was cheap enough to justify the cost of the welding/overplating but it takes a looooooong time.
Can you stage any of the work? i.e. will the engine be 'good enough' for a couple of years so that you can delay some cost?
I think everyone will agree that it is best to estimate what you think the project will cost and then double it.
Saying that, it WILL be worth it in the end!
All the best,
Paul

[DBA Forum (B) - steve rothwell]

great advice thanks....reading this and other replies pretty well confirms by instinct that we need to keep looking for a pretty good fit to what we want vs consider creating it!! I am now of the opinion a bit of updating and refreshing would be fun....renovation would not be!!
steve

[DBA Forum (B) - steve rothwell]

really helpful thanks and certainly makes it easy to decide what to do - give up on the vastly overpriced tjalk we have ruminated over and look for something closer to the finished article! steve

[DBA Forum (B) - Colin Stone]

Post by DBA Forum (B) - steve rothwell
I am now of the opinion a bit of updating and refreshing would be fun....renovation would not be!!

Hummm - probably the dodgiest of all options?
One removes a bit to update and refresh and discover a horror behind eg all the original rockwool insulation, very common, has gone soggy and dropped to the floor.

Colin Stone
KEI

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[DBA Forum (B) - Charles Fitzhardinge]

Depends rather on your own abilities and preferences.
Ask yourself:
1. Can you make a reasonable assessment of the condition of the boat you are looking at?
2. Are you generally handy, confident of your ability to carry out elementary carpentry, plumbing and electrical works (leaving the really technical stuff to professionals where appropriate)?

If the answer to both is yes, go to it.
Over the 7 years since we bought our now 100 year old tjalk Anna Maria in 2007, most of those boats we have met which have had recurring problems have in fact been new-builds (mostly UK built)!

Raised on an Australian farm, now a retired consulting engineer, and a repeat renovator of the succession of old homes I have lived in, the answer (for me) was firmly buy a tried and proved old boat, but make sure you view and assess plenty of boats before you make a choice.
In our first full summer of ownership (2008) we sailed nowhere. In the gaps between my trips to Singapore for a project I was completing, we grew to know the layout of Anna Maria intimately. This period confirmed my assessment that she was inherently sound and well maintained, but in some ways dated - no generator and electrical power-management system, insufficient water tankage, 1968 boat-style "bathroom". The previous owners had, over 35 years of ownership, maintained her well, but had used her mainly for weekend and short holiday voyages.
In this period we renovated the interior fit-out (mostly re-using the lovely existing materials - difficult to do with a contract to a tradesman), turned one cabin into a proper bathroom (with washing machine etc) and over the ensuing winter (2008/9) had the workshop of our marina (where Anna Maria had lived for the past 20 years) fit the essential generator, Victron system, extra water tanks etc, ready for our Springtime return to the Northern Hemisphere.

Over each of the subsequent years we have travelled about 2500km.
2009 - Friesland to Paris and return (AM wintered in Friesland)
2010 - Berlin and Mecklenberg and return (AM wintered in Friesland)
2011 - Strasbourg, the German and French Mosel/Moselle including Cochem and Luxembourg, and then down to the Saône (AM wintered in St Symphorien)
2012 - Burgundy to Paris via Pouilly tunnel, back to Dijon via Loire, Nivernais, etc, (We wintered on AM in Paris Arsenal)
2013 - Paris to Harlingen NL (for our 7-year survey and for TRIWV certification) and return (We again wintered on AM in Paris Arsenal.
2014 - Paris to Flanders - where we are now (we will leave AM in Friesland this winter while we co home for a proper southern Summer).
So after the initial year we have enjoyed nearly 6 years and 15,000km cruising in 5 European countries, without a single significant ship-related problem. Obviously the hands-on approach to renovation has paid off - I know where every cable and every fitting is, what it does, and its condition - a great confidence booster when cruising somewhere remote or where my language skills are overstretched!

My advice - If you like old ships (and houses, as I do), and if you feel you can do it, buy a tried and tested "oldie" - (as we ourselves are!).
However if you are not confident (and can afford the extroardinary elevated prices asked for new ships or for "professional" renovation, good or bad) that is what you should do.

Charles Fitzhardinge
Anna Maria

[DBA Forum (B) - Frank Kordbarlag]

80 - 90 % of the cost of refitting a boat are labor cost. So logically, if you can reduce the labor cost, you can reduce the overall cost of a refit dramatically.

If you know where to look, you can find a very good craftsman for €1300 per month. Personally, I look in Lithuania. Very tidy and busy people - and they just don´t know when to stop in the evening.... I had an amazingly resourceful man working for 6 month on my ship and the interior and exterior looks much better then the ships I see around me. Just one example: When my angle grinder broke, I said I would go and get a new one... he just looked at me like I was some sort of idiot and just took the thing apart, put some new coal contact in and continued working with the grinder. Having lived in the Soviet Union has certainly some advantages.

But you have to know exactly what you want, otherwise everything starts to look - well, I don´t want to be rude - eastern European or so.

Frank